Do you believe in genetic limitations? - no
i believe i can always be stronger, bigger, better - i know no limit, i have no excuse, i stop at absolutely NOTHING
Genetics also stop the body from developing enormous biceps for those curl jockies.
And thank goodness, too!Originally Posted by betastas
K, vis-a-vis the genetics thing, it seems pretty clear to me that we've reached a consensus here - they play a huge part, but they aren't the end-all-be-all of reaching your potential. To wit, if I practice basketball every day for the rest of my LIFE, Michael Jordan would still school me in a game. That's genetics. He's a genetically gifted athlete, and I have no doubt whatsoever that he would school me given a fraction of the training.
That being said, what's to say that there isn't someone out there who was MORE genetically gifted than MJ but never hit the big time because he didn't work hard enough? In fact, I'll go out on a limb here - I'll bet there was. I'll bet there was someone out there who was just a basketball FREAK who never played in the NBA because he was too lazy to work hard enough to get there.
Loupac hit it here - there will always be someone better at something than you, K. You should really only be comparing against yourself here. Isn't that why you got into this game in the first place?
EDIT: And please don't give me that naive "If you believe it, you can achieve it!" garbage. I can believe that I will compete as an Olympic sprinter all I want, but frankly, it's not in the cards for me.
Last edited by McIrish; 11-14-2006 at 07:12 AM.
25 years old, 5'10''
Back in the States to get hayooooge!
- Weigh a healthy and active 170-180, healthy mind and body
- Dunk a basketball (hey a man can have big dreams huh)
- Swim 2-3x/week and become a better swimmer
I think we are blurring two concepts here:
(I believe in both, by the way, but they are distinct)
For example, there could be a skinny guy who can only bench 105lbs the first time he ever tried, and one of those "big boned" guys who can bench 215 first shot and has a naturally large physique.
Those are natural strengths, and a lot of that does have to do with genetics, obviously.
But both of them could go into training for bodybuilding, and they both have problems to overcome. The skinny kid may not be able to bench as much, but he might, perhaps have long muscle bellies and good proportions. The second guy can bench more, but no matter how much weight he loses, he always seems to have a 'tree trunk' body even though he always had broad shoulders. Years later, the "kid" is no benching over 300 and winning BB competitions, and the 'big guy' is back at the gym cuttin' his abs up.
Just a hypothetical, but the point is, there are genetic strengths and genetic limitations, but I think too many people focus on them too much, and some people even use them as psychological crutches. Odds are, you'll never reach your limits.
There's always got to be SOMEONE who is the strongest person in the world. In that case, the whole "there's always someone stronger than you" cliche does not apply.Originally Posted by LouPac
If genetics didn't play a large role in athletic prowess/physique, people wouldn't be shelling out large sums of money for champion horses or dogs put to stud.
I've seen it happen in all kinds of sports, and can tell you for a fact: insane genetics with a half-decent work ethic beats everything.
Of course I usually have more respect for someone who trains his ass off, the someone who just gets by on natural ability -- such as myself sometimes... Those people I often feel sorry for: they want it so bad, and they work so hard, yet they aren't going anywhere. Once I felt so bad about beating a girl in a 100-m dash. She had been sprinting for 5-6 years, and I come along and beat her. Sure, I'm a man. But also about 300 Lbs of fat at the time. That broke my heart, actually. She was a good sport, though, and accepted defeat graciously. A lot more graciously then I would have.
So yes, genetic limitations are very real. However, they cannot be foretold simply by looking at someone. I've seen rail-thin teens grow into impressively buff and strong men in just 3-4 years. Also I've seen people bench 200 Lbs their first try... and benching 240 2 years later.
There are genetic limits, but I believe your mental attitude holds you back more then anything else. Very few people are motivated and determined enough to really reach their genetic limits or even get close. But the genetic limits are there, I highly doubt that I'll ever be a 700+ pound raw bencher or squat 800 pounds. I doubt that I'll ever make it to 275 pounds at 15% body fat you know. But I also know I have a lot left in me, and can further myself to a point well beyond my current status.
:withstupiOriginally Posted by WBBIRL
I completly believe in genetic limits but I think 99.9% of people who believe they have reached their genetic limit just aren't mentally trying as hard anymore.
PRs: 655/525/645 = 1825 Total
Meet PRs: Bench Only 525
Deadlifts bring people together. It's a fact. - Chris Rodgers
In terms of bodybuilding, the VAST majority of trainees are nowhere near their genetic limits.
That said, my perception of nature vs nurture is this:
Genetics tends to determine the RANGE of POSSIBLE ability you will express as well as any natural aptitude. It sets the maximum and minimum levels that you will tend to perform at naturally.
Your willpower, determination and effective efforts determine where within your RANGE you will perform.
Lets take something simple like throwing a football. Lets pretend that Madden ratings are real and that you can be 1 to 99 in throwing ability.
Someone might have all the natural gifts; big hands, lots of fast-twitch muscle fibres, excellent hand-eye coordination, etc (think Peyton Manning). Their range might be from 40 to 99. They are naturally more competent to begin with but must still train in the mechanics of throwing to improve themselves.
Someone else might not be naturally gifted. Smaller hands, fewer fast-twtich fibres, and an awkward natural throwing motion (think Rich Gannon's sidearm). Their natural range might be 15 to 90.
Both quarterbacks might have a throwing rating of about 80 at a given point in their careers, but where they fall within their potential range is a function of how hard they're training and how well they've mastered all the parts of the movement. More importantly, they can both perform at an elite professional level despite having different genetics.
When it comes to something like bodybuilding, I like to compare Frank Zane and Arnold Schwarzenegger. These guys had very different physiques (genetically) and yet both went on to become Mr. O... Zane was never going to be as massive or as tall or as imposing as Schwarzenegger but he maximized his own natural gifts and was successful.
Last edited by Relentless; 11-14-2006 at 01:31 PM.
I agree, however think of the "newbie gains" stage - for me, they lasted about a year, then my rate of progress slowed considerably. As I understand it, this is not an uncommon thing for most people - the biggest gains are always seen at the beginning of a training program.Originally Posted by Sidior
However, contrast that with a genetically gifted person, such as an IFBB pro. I'll bet their "newbie gains" stage extended for many years, not just 1. The gains they made during that time were probably also greater.
I agree that very few people have reached their genetic limit; however, the closer you get to it, the slower you approach it, and the more difficult it becomes to make more progress.
You can only do as much as your genetics allow.
Look at pro BBers. They obviously have their training/diet down EXACTLY and also have access to the best drugs. However, most of them are lucky to gain 5-10 pounds of LBM in a year.
D 435 / S 340 / B 305
"I avoid talking to normal people about this stuff as much as possible. It's usually a waste of time." - HahnB
"OMG HE EETS 2 MUCH0RZ!!111 O NOES HE EETS TEH FATS!!!111" - PowerManDL
"Test does a body good." - Severed Ties
Alright, I guess since you put it that way, you're right. But, I doubt that anyone will reach their genetic limitations before old age gets too them. It would just take too long in my opinion.Originally Posted by Natetaco
Last edited by bodybuilderam; 11-14-2006 at 06:24 PM.
Goals by January '08:
Originally Posted by deeder
Originally Posted by bodybuilderam
i definatly agree with you on this
I dont know that it would take too long, people just get it in there head that somethings too heavy and the battle's lost before it begins.
I've done it before, whats going through your mind before an attempt makes a big difference on wether or not you actually get it. If you say oh man this ****s heavy then chances are you'll miss (if your anywhere in the range of your 1RM).
Your genetic limit is limited by how much weight your body can support until it breaks. How much weight can your body support on a squat until your spine breaks? anyone know?
With proper introduction, I think the limit of weight which you spine can handle is far heavier then the biggest full squat.
In the future, I dont see why gear that ramps up these bodily (mostly structure wise not muscularly) deficiencies that would allow for insane leaps in the strongest lifts of all time.