The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
Latest Article

The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
More Recent Articles
Contrast Training for Size
By: Lee Boyce
An Interview with Marianne Kane of Girls Gone Strong
By: Jordan Syatt
What Supplements Should I be Taking? By: Jay Wainwright
Bench Like a Girl By: Julia Ladewski
Some Thoughts on Building a Big Pull By: Christopher Mason

Facebook Join Facebook Group       Twitter Follow on Twitter       rss Subscribe via RSS
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 30
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    0

    How low can your bf% get?

    Go now, run along and tell your xerxes he faces free men here, not slaves

  2.    Support Wannabebig and use AtLarge Nutrition Supplements!


  3. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    London U.K
    Posts
    632
    3%, below that and you die due to the fact that that remaining 3% is essential fats in your brain.

  4. #3
    DeaTH BeFoRe WeaKNeSs sCaRz*Of*PaiN's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    My Head
    Posts
    6,120
    Is this a joke thread?
    "The only easy day was yesterday."

  5. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    0
    no
    Go now, run along and tell your xerxes he faces free men here, not slaves

  6. #5
    Is cutting down to 9% Jordanbcool's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Kent Island, Maryland
    Posts
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by sCaRz*Of*PaiN
    Is this a joke thread?
    No there was a discussion about it between me and another board member. I'm glad someone made this thread.

    I have to agree that you cannot get below 3% no matter how hard you tried and if you somehow did you'd die.
    Last edited by Jordanbcool; 11-21-2006 at 03:20 PM.
    Getting back in the groove
    "I'll tell you a secret. Something they don't teach you in your temple. The Gods envy us. They envy us because we're mortal, because any moment might be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we're doomed. You will never be lovelier than you are now. We will never be here again." - Achilles, (Troy 2004)
    Stats
    ATF squat- 275 RAW
    Deadlift- 415
    Bench- Two 100lbs DB's four times
    190lbs 15% BF (Estimate)

  7. #6
    Wannabebig Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    9
    i was at 4%....so your telling me i almost died?

  8. #7
    Breaker of Skulls Guido's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    40N 88W
    Posts
    11,345
    There is also a certain amount of visceral (intra-abdominal) fat around the organs to help insulate and protect them. You need that in addition to the brain fat or you would die quickly. You can go as low as 3% but for only a few hours at a time because it's very unhealthy. Anything below 5% is not good long term.
    5'9" 195 lbs
    DL 600x1
    SQ 490x1 (raw)
    BP 430x1 (shirted), 320x1 (raw)
    SN 209x1 C+J 250x1


    My Training Journal
    www.illinipowerlifting.org

    "Most people don't want to learn new things. They only want to hear about things that validate crap they're already doing." - Mike Boyle

  9. #8
    Breaker of Skulls Guido's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    40N 88W
    Posts
    11,345
    Quote Originally Posted by ams44
    i was at 4%....so your telling me i almost died?
    How do you know you were at 4%? How did you determine that?
    5'9" 195 lbs
    DL 600x1
    SQ 490x1 (raw)
    BP 430x1 (shirted), 320x1 (raw)
    SN 209x1 C+J 250x1


    My Training Journal
    www.illinipowerlifting.org

    "Most people don't want to learn new things. They only want to hear about things that validate crap they're already doing." - Mike Boyle

  10. #9
    Is cutting down to 9% Jordanbcool's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Kent Island, Maryland
    Posts
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by ams44
    i was at 4%....so your telling me i almost died?
    No. You can be at 3% and not die. You could die though if you stayed at 4% for an extended amount of time.

    99.9% of the time a contest bodybuilder does not come close to those 3% let alone 4%. Most of them get to be around 7% but since bodyfat measurements can be horribly inaccurate they may calculate their bodyfat at 2% or some absurd claim like that. They arent lying they are just using inaccurate methods.
    Getting back in the groove
    "I'll tell you a secret. Something they don't teach you in your temple. The Gods envy us. They envy us because we're mortal, because any moment might be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we're doomed. You will never be lovelier than you are now. We will never be here again." - Achilles, (Troy 2004)
    Stats
    ATF squat- 275 RAW
    Deadlift- 415
    Bench- Two 100lbs DB's four times
    190lbs 15% BF (Estimate)

  11. #10
    Cardio bunny Alex.V's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Duke
    Posts
    49
    Very well. I'll re-post my original:

    Quote Originally Posted by 8.8
    i've read information like that was well and im not saying there aren't side effects, when your body fat is that low you have to wacth out for things like organ failure and going into ketosis, im not saying its healthy by all means , ITS NOT AT ALL, but its possible, for one my body stoped its menstural cycle when my bf got so low- also I felt as if I was in a haze most of the time. my body was baically starving( even though i was consuming 2000 calories a day)- i was not as alert i was not as strong- i couldnt not think as well - that is not a bf % i would ever try to maintain for a long period of time
    I agree, I've maintained a very low bodyfat, and to say you'll keel over and die is hyperbole to say the least. Lyle is actually wrong in that post... essential bodyfat is identical for both genders as far as the fat located in neural tissues and surrounding vital organs (which is essential but not critical...i.e. dangerous but not immediately fatal if gone.). The brain and nervous system weighs around 6-7 pounds all told, (the brain being about 3 pounds), of which around 40% by volume is solid, the plurality of that being fat, which amounts to 2-3 pounds of fat ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM (likely less than half that) in the average human. For me, that's around 0.95% of my bodyweight or some such. So there's 2% to play with before I keel over and die.

    The necessary amount of lipid stores in other tissues are very low, and it IS possible for both genders to drop well into the 4% range and survive. I've been there, measured both by dunk tank and bod pod (air displacement). This was at a time where I would nearly black out after going up a flight of stairs. I would get bruising on my butt and soles of my feet from walking or sitting. My immune system was so compromised that I had a scrape on my elbow last a month and contracted a case of strep throat which lasted an equal time, even with antibiotics. At times I would have difficulty putting full sentences together... I'd forget what I was talking about halfway through and wander off.

    That last part hasn't changed.

    Keep in mind this was on a pure starvation diet aided by DNP and usinic acid.

    I don't recommend it. But I guarantee very few people have even been close to that point.

    But for most women, dropping below 12-13% is very difficult. Thank estrogen for that, among other factors. For most men, anywhere below 8-9% is tough. In that picture, 8.8, you're most likely around 13%, there's simply not enough definition anywhere to claim single digit body fat. This is not an insult, you look fantastic, but people need to be realistic here.

    I do maintain around 7-8% now, which means veins on the abdomen, quads, shoulders, and lats... no fat on my legs, visible striations in my glutes, and only about a quarter to a half inch to pinch (ha! rhyme) in my lower back/love handle area. I was around 6.5-7% for a while, but my stores were so low that I would sometimes get near fainting if I went for more than a few hours without eating.

    So really, be realistic about bodyfat. Don't get caught up in the damn number, go by the mirror.
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
    "Alex is all knowing and perfect"-----Jane (loosely paraphrased)
    -515/745/700 bench/deadlift/squat
    Current mile time: 4:23
    Marathons: 3
    Century races: 3
    Ironmans: 1
    Ultramarathons: 1
    Current supps: http://www.atlargenutrition.com/prod...covery/results

  12. #11
    Is cutting down to 9% Jordanbcool's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Kent Island, Maryland
    Posts
    0
    Discuss everyone. Belial has alot of respect on this board me and him were having a discussion on this and decided to make this thread.
    Last edited by Jordanbcool; 11-21-2006 at 03:34 PM.
    Getting back in the groove
    "I'll tell you a secret. Something they don't teach you in your temple. The Gods envy us. They envy us because we're mortal, because any moment might be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we're doomed. You will never be lovelier than you are now. We will never be here again." - Achilles, (Troy 2004)
    Stats
    ATF squat- 275 RAW
    Deadlift- 415
    Bench- Two 100lbs DB's four times
    190lbs 15% BF (Estimate)

  13. #12
    Cardio bunny Alex.V's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Duke
    Posts
    49
    (btw, the information I gave regarding weight of brain and CNS, proportion of neural tissue that is fat, and the relative necessity of visceral fat IS fact, not conjecture, for those who give conjecture the same value I do... read: none)
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
    "Alex is all knowing and perfect"-----Jane (loosely paraphrased)
    -515/745/700 bench/deadlift/squat
    Current mile time: 4:23
    Marathons: 3
    Century races: 3
    Ironmans: 1
    Ultramarathons: 1
    Current supps: http://www.atlargenutrition.com/prod...covery/results

  14. #13
    Cardio bunny Alex.V's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Duke
    Posts
    49
    Yes, please. Anybody with input, or anything that may be missing from this explanation, fire away. I certainly don't claim to have the final answer on this, so if anybody has anything to add...
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
    "Alex is all knowing and perfect"-----Jane (loosely paraphrased)
    -515/745/700 bench/deadlift/squat
    Current mile time: 4:23
    Marathons: 3
    Century races: 3
    Ironmans: 1
    Ultramarathons: 1
    Current supps: http://www.atlargenutrition.com/prod...covery/results

  15. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    281
    Just wondering Belial, how did you measure the 7-8% that you are maintaining right now?

    I always thought I was around 8.5-9%, but I don't really have visible veins anywhere other than my forearms, upper arms, and calfs. Also don't have visible striations in my glutes, but do have a bit in the deltoids. Mine was measured with the 10-point or whatever caliper test, which I guess isn't very accurate compared to the dunk tank or air displacement. By your description I would think I was more around the 10-12% range.

    It is possible though that two people who have equal bodyfat would have different areas of definition/vascularity though, correct?
    Name: Addison , Height: 6'0"
    Weight: 173 lbs, Location: Toronto
    Bodyfat: 8.4%, Age: 18


    Bench: 205lb x 2
    Squat: 275lb x 4
    Deadlift: 305lb x 1
    Chins: 20 pronated, 5 w/ 50lb db

    As of 5/03/2005

    My Pic Thread

  16. #15
    Is cutting down to 9% Jordanbcool's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Kent Island, Maryland
    Posts
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by KeMiKaL
    It is possible though that two people who have equal bodyfat would have different areas of definition/vascularity though, correct?
    Yes its very possible. It all has to do with where your body stores fatty tissue.
    Getting back in the groove
    "I'll tell you a secret. Something they don't teach you in your temple. The Gods envy us. They envy us because we're mortal, because any moment might be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we're doomed. You will never be lovelier than you are now. We will never be here again." - Achilles, (Troy 2004)
    Stats
    ATF squat- 275 RAW
    Deadlift- 415
    Bench- Two 100lbs DB's four times
    190lbs 15% BF (Estimate)

  17. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by KeMiKaL
    Just wondering Belial, how did you measure the 7-8% that you are maintaining right now?

    I always thought I was around 8.5-9%, but I don't really have visible veins anywhere other than my forearms, upper arms, and calfs. Also don't have visible striations in my glutes, but do have a bit in the deltoids. Mine was measured with the 10-point or whatever caliper test, which I guess isn't very accurate compared to the dunk tank or air displacement. By your description I would think I was more around the 10-12% range.

    It is possible though that two people who have equal bodyfat would have different areas of definition/vascularity though, correct?
    Belial is also carrying >60lbs more LBM than you though - I think that makes a large difference. I would assume that more muscle, more bloodflow, more veins.

    A skinny 140lb guy at 8% wont look anything like a 240lb guy at 8%. In your case, your description does sound more like 10-12% but you're right that distribution can vary. I carry hardly any fat on my legs or arms and most goes straight to my stomach and handles. I can have a vein in my arm but no six pack. It just varies person to person.

  18. #17
    Is cutting down to 9% Jordanbcool's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Kent Island, Maryland
    Posts
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Belial
    Yes, please. Anybody with input, or anything that may be missing from this explanation, fire away. I certainly don't claim to have the final answer on this, so if anybody has anything to add...
    Belial. Again. I'm not trying to doubt your word I'm just saying that everything I've read and researched that had ANY scientific value or importance has shown me that a male physically cannot go lower then 3% bodyfat. I havent seen as many things for females but I don't doubt lyle mcdonald so I'm inclined to say that it would be 9% for a female bodybuilder.
    Getting back in the groove
    "I'll tell you a secret. Something they don't teach you in your temple. The Gods envy us. They envy us because we're mortal, because any moment might be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we're doomed. You will never be lovelier than you are now. We will never be here again." - Achilles, (Troy 2004)
    Stats
    ATF squat- 275 RAW
    Deadlift- 415
    Bench- Two 100lbs DB's four times
    190lbs 15% BF (Estimate)

  19. #18
    Cardio bunny Alex.V's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Duke
    Posts
    49
    Oh my god, I just hit the back button and lost a thousand word post. Here we go again.

    Jordan, essentially what I'm saying is that I never argued an individual can get down to the point where there is nothing remaining but neural tissue fat. But I AM saying that it is possible to get very close, if not right down to, that 3% mark and survive. There is no solid evidence indicating that this is a limit; rather only a body of statistics that indicate it is an asymptote, and being at this level is NOT immediately fatal. There is also no reason a female cannot approach the same level; the body fat required for proper sexual function is not essential to life. Amenorrhea is not fatal. Loss of breast tissue is not fatal (though it is tragic). Loss of visceral fat for organ padding is not acutely fatal.

    You will see very few individuals even approaching this level. Bodybuilders, or any athlete attempting to maintain any lean body mass, simply cannot get down to this level without massive losses of lean body mass, and in any sort of crash diet to this level, electrolyte imbalances (because of the massive nutritional needs of the extra skeletal muscle) could cause severe acute health problems long before the lack of fat became an issue. So any test of an extremely lean individual would have to be somebody who is severely underweight, severely calorically restricted, AND using lipid-metabolizing aids, all while taking enough electrolyte supplements to support basic cardiac and neural function. Yes, I was doing this, but for most people the symptoms become prohibitively dangerous, starting with lethargy, progressing to severe mental sluggishness and loss of muscular control (yes, as disgusting as it is, I lost bowel control one night). This would be enough to halt almost ANY study.

    Therefore, the problem is there is so little empirical evidence to go by. It would be ethically and morally repulsive to conduct any sort of study that included both severe caloric restriction AND lipid-metabolizing sympathomimetics. In fact, the empirical evidence I know of consists of one individual... me. Yes, I'll admit, this is scientifically insignificant. So we have likely a few isolated case studies and a bunch of conjecture based on our knowledge of physiology. Enough to draw a conclusion? No. But certainly enough to call an existing conclusion into question, which is all I was doing.

    And David is right. Keep in mind, I'm still carrying 16 pounds of fat, which is not insignificant on somebody who is 6 feet tall. Caliper tests are notoriously inaccurate, especially when you're even around 10% bodyfat. I ten point caliper test at 1.8% last I checked. This is most likely inaccurate.



    I usually don't doubt Lyle either. He's a very smart individual who has forgotten more relevant studies than most of us have read, and I've learned a tremendous amount from him. But he's also very absolute in certain cases where he probably should not be. And speaking in absolutes, especially on a subject as relatively poorly understood as human physiology, is usually a mistake.
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
    "Alex is all knowing and perfect"-----Jane (loosely paraphrased)
    -515/745/700 bench/deadlift/squat
    Current mile time: 4:23
    Marathons: 3
    Century races: 3
    Ironmans: 1
    Ultramarathons: 1
    Current supps: http://www.atlargenutrition.com/prod...covery/results

  20. #19
    The Man of Steel -Superman-'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Posts
    1,017
    What % BF do people like Ronnie Coleman have during the Mr. Olympia contest? Or Arnold. I won't say Jay Cutler because he was bloated and looked nasty. Thanks.

    From 155 lbs to 200 lbs (PICS/VIDS INCLUDED)

    Height: 6'0"; BW: 202lbs; Age: 24; BF: ~11%
    155lbs [07-01-06] 176lbs [09-14-06] 179lbs [09-21-06] 182lbs [10-02-06] 184lbs [10-18-06] 186lbs [10-23-06] 187lbs [11-08-06] 189lbs [11-19-06] 190lbs [11-21-06] 191lbs [12-21-06] 194lbs [12-31-06]

    Bench: 250lbs; Squat: 350lbs lbs; Deadlift: 430 lbs

    Military: 111lbsx8; Dips: BWx30; Pullups: BWx10; WChestP: 360lbsx7; 45LegP: 470lbsx20; C Raise: 360lbs; BB Curl: 105lbsx3; Lat Pull: 195lbsx5

  21. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Rhode Island
    Posts
    12,254
    Usually the pro's are 5-7% i believe for show.

    Belial - do you find it difficult to maintain your status as an elite? are you still cycling? if you never cycled before you must be a freak with those lifts and BF, haha.
    2000 or bust

  22. #21
    Is cutting down to 9% Jordanbcool's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Kent Island, Maryland
    Posts
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Belial
    Oh my god, I just hit the back button and lost a thousand word post. Here we go again.

    Jordan, essentially what I'm saying is that I never argued an individual can get down to the point where there is nothing remaining but neural tissue fat. But I AM saying that it is possible to get very close, if not right down to, that 3% mark and survive. There is no solid evidence indicating that this is a limit; rather only a body of statistics that indicate it is an asymptote, and being at this level is NOT immediately fatal. There is also no reason a female cannot approach the same level; the body fat required for proper sexual function is not essential to life. Amenorrhea is not fatal. Loss of breast tissue is not fatal (though it is tragic). Loss of visceral fat for organ padding is not acutely fatal.

    You will see very few individuals even approaching this level. Bodybuilders, or any athlete attempting to maintain any lean body mass, simply cannot get down to this level without massive losses of lean body mass, and in any sort of crash diet to this level, electrolyte imbalances (because of the massive nutritional needs of the extra skeletal muscle) could cause severe acute health problems long before the lack of fat became an issue. So any test of an extremely lean individual would have to be somebody who is severely underweight, severely calorically restricted, AND using lipid-metabolizing aids, all while taking enough electrolyte supplements to support basic cardiac and neural function. Yes, I was doing this, but for most people the symptoms become prohibitively dangerous, starting with lethargy, progressing to severe mental sluggishness and loss of muscular control (yes, as disgusting as it is, I lost bowel control one night). This would be enough to halt almost ANY study.

    Therefore, the problem is there is so little empirical evidence to go by. It would be ethically and morally repulsive to conduct any sort of study that included both severe caloric restriction AND lipid-metabolizing sympathomimetics. In fact, the empirical evidence I know of consists of one individual... me. Yes, I'll admit, this is scientifically insignificant. So we have likely a few isolated case studies and a bunch of conjecture based on our knowledge of physiology. Enough to draw a conclusion? No. But certainly enough to call an existing conclusion into question, which is all I was doing.

    And David is right. Keep in mind, I'm still carrying 16 pounds of fat, which is not insignificant on somebody who is 6 feet tall. Caliper tests are notoriously inaccurate, especially when you're even around 10% bodyfat. I ten point caliper test at 1.8% last I checked. This is most likely inaccurate.



    I usually don't doubt Lyle either. He's a very smart individual who has forgotten more relevant studies than most of us have read, and I've learned a tremendous amount from him. But he's also very absolute in certain cases where he probably should not be. And speaking in absolutes, especially on a subject as relatively poorly understood as human physiology, is usually a mistake.
    Ok. Good post.

    I guess then that you'd never really know how low you could get without dying until you did an expirement that actually involved someone going onto a starvation diet until death.

    Likewise you would have been in the beginning to moderate stages of death or pretty close to it from the symptoms you described. And had you extended that period for an indefinate amount of time you probably would have died.

    So then the real debate is how long it would take for you to die in such an expirement. Its really more of a technicality then actual facts and what not. I think the real thing lyle was getting at was: Just because you have a six pack, alot of veins, are ripped and the calipers say you have 2% bodyfat does not mean you are actually at 2% bodyfat. In the end I think thats what the real message needs to be driven home. Getting more accurate bodyfat readings.

    BTW: I think this thread should be included in the "best of bodybuilder threads". Or something similar. Just a link would do. I think that'd be a good idea for newbs to realize their true bodyfat despite what they think it is.
    Last edited by Jordanbcool; 11-21-2006 at 08:22 PM.
    Getting back in the groove
    "I'll tell you a secret. Something they don't teach you in your temple. The Gods envy us. They envy us because we're mortal, because any moment might be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we're doomed. You will never be lovelier than you are now. We will never be here again." - Achilles, (Troy 2004)
    Stats
    ATF squat- 275 RAW
    Deadlift- 415
    Bench- Two 100lbs DB's four times
    190lbs 15% BF (Estimate)

  23. #22
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    146
    The anorexic twins from the dr phil show probably have less than 3% bf levels, and they haven't died yet

  24. #23
    THUNDER THIGHS! Fuzzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Adelaide, South Australia
    Posts
    2,794
    Hmmm.... but they dont have to support massive muscle amounts, and I doubt theyd be doing as much physical excersize and stress in order to hold on to muscle mass.

    They would break like twigs, and are probably on the verge to.
    Being a strong teenager means nothing.

    My wrists hurt, but some people don't have wrists to be sore. My knees have tendinitis, but some people don't have legs to get tendinitis in. I seem to be going backwards with training, yet some people can't even walk let alone lift 400 pounds on a daily basis.

    Dust out the vagina, and keep on lifting.

  25. #24
    Never enough. MeHoW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Chicago, IL / Ames, IA (School)
    Posts
    243
    Quote Originally Posted by -Superman-
    What % BF do people like Ronnie Coleman have during the Mr. Olympia contest? Or Arnold. I won't say Jay Cutler because he was bloated and looked nasty. Thanks.

    I'm actually curious myself.
    5'6
    160
    29.5 waist

    Bench:240-250, somewhere in that area.
    Squat:315
    Deadlift:385-405

    Goal: Lift more, Be Bigger and look Better.

  26. #25
    Breaker of Skulls Guido's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    40N 88W
    Posts
    11,345
    Quote Originally Posted by Sexybeast777
    The anorexic twins from the dr phil show probably have less than 3% bf levels, and they haven't died yet
    How do you know? Have you measured them using accurate methods?
    5'9" 195 lbs
    DL 600x1
    SQ 490x1 (raw)
    BP 430x1 (shirted), 320x1 (raw)
    SN 209x1 C+J 250x1


    My Training Journal
    www.illinipowerlifting.org

    "Most people don't want to learn new things. They only want to hear about things that validate crap they're already doing." - Mike Boyle

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •