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Thread: Get Built - Issue 5 - By MariAnne Anderson - Dec 9th 2006

  1. #26
    Cardio bunny Alex.V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewTriathlete View Post
    My Second question is about the Anabolic window that happens right after you lift. I understand how protien intake is very important during this time, but what is happening with that protien during this time? A lot of other articles I've read state that almost all muscle building occurs at night during sleep. Is this true?

    Unless you're in a starved state and haven't eaten anything solid for 24 hours, or have just somehow depleted ALL the glycogen in your body (you'd be dead) chances are you have more than enough amino acids in your gut being digested to assist in repair, and enough carbohydrates to prevent immediate catabolism.

    Most important thing to get in is a small amount of simple carbohydrates to bring your blood sugar back up quickly. You'll feel better. But other than that, the post-workout shake is one of the biggest pieces of marketing hype ever thrown out by supp companies.

    This is not to say they're useless for endurance athletes, bodybuilders or strength athletes who are cutting weight, etc... nor is it to say that electrolyte/carb recovery drinks are worthless.

    But don't worry about the silly anabolic window. It's not an window. It's a god damn barn door that you can fit a truck through, and it's always open.

    And maltodextrin... has too many different structures depending on the starch it's derived from, but essentially they are all processed quickly and easily by the gut, quickly stripped down into various simple sugars for processing. Of course, there are issues regarding malto versus dextrose concentrations in sports drinks for dehydrated athletes (osmolality issues, etc.), but those are nothing to worry about unless you're taking in your malto in a dehydrated, critical state.

    So, essentially, there's no difference between using malto and using dextrose.
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
    "Alex is all knowing and perfect"-----Jane (loosely paraphrased)
    -515/745/700 bench/deadlift/squat
    Current mile time: 4:23
    Marathons: 3
    Century races: 3
    Ironmans: 1
    Ultramarathons: 1
    Current supps: http://www.atlargenutrition.com/prod...covery/results

  2. #27
    Journalist galileo's Avatar
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    I agree with Belial. The increased protein synthesis induced by exercise is somewhere around 36 hours.

  3. #28
    Just watch me ... Built's Avatar
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    Looking at this from the another perspective: an important consideration of the malto/dex thing is the taste.

    Dex is really sweet. Malto is virtually tasteless. If you're looking to boost the carbs in your shake and just don't like that sickly sweet taste, you might want to choose malto over dex. If you LIKE it sweet, by all means, stick to straight dex.

  4. #29
    Cardio bunny Alex.V's Avatar
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    Good point. I'm the kind of guy who puts three splendas in my coffee.

    So I'd go with dextrose.





    ...Actually, I'd go with a chocolate glazed donut.
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
    "Alex is all knowing and perfect"-----Jane (loosely paraphrased)
    -515/745/700 bench/deadlift/squat
    Current mile time: 4:23
    Marathons: 3
    Century races: 3
    Ironmans: 1
    Ultramarathons: 1
    Current supps: http://www.atlargenutrition.com/prod...covery/results

  5. #30
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    If I understand what you are saying about the anabolic window, I disagree with you. That window is about an hour. You can prolong it a little bit, but not a lot. The window refers to your insulin sensitivity. Post-workout, you are very insulin sensitive. You want to replenish your glycogen stores. Protein is not all that important inthat first hour. Carbs are very important. You want a 4/1 carb to protein ratio. If you want to try and prolong that window, this worked well for me.

    Immediately after workout 80g malto/20g whey
    30 minutes later 80g malto/20g whey
    30 minutes later 80g malto/20g whey 20g egg 20g soy (60g total)
    30 minutes later eat 2-3 protein sources and whatever carb source you can eat. This meal will be tough to eat.

    I gained a lot of weight with this. I did this 3x per week after each workout.

    If you drink shakes thruout the day, I used whole wheat flour and whey 50/50 3-4x per day. The wheat flour is loaded with Glutamine. It's tough to drink, though. I switched to oatmeal. This will make you big!

  6. #31
    Journalist galileo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RhodeHouse View Post
    If I understand what you are saying about the anabolic window, I disagree with you. That window is about an hour. You can prolong it a little bit, but not a lot. The window refers to your insulin sensitivity. Post-workout, you are very insulin sensitive. You want to replenish your glycogen stores. Protein is not all that important inthat first hour. Carbs are very important. You want a 4/1 carb to protein ratio. If you want to try and prolong that window, this worked well for me.

    Immediately after workout 80g malto/20g whey
    30 minutes later 80g malto/20g whey
    30 minutes later 80g malto/20g whey 20g egg 20g soy (60g total)
    30 minutes later eat 2-3 protein sources and whatever carb source you can eat. This meal will be tough to eat.

    I gained a lot of weight with this. I did this 3x per week after each workout.

    If you drink shakes thruout the day, I used whole wheat flour and whey 50/50 3-4x per day. The wheat flour is loaded with Glutamine. It's tough to drink, though. I switched to oatmeal. This will make you big!
    Science please.

  7. #32

  8. #33
    Just watch me ... Built's Avatar
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    Okay - just looked it up. http://www.nal.usda.gov

    A cup of all purpose white flour has about 13g of protein, about 4 of which comes from glutamic acid.

    I'm not entirely sure I'd call this "loaded" with glutamine. Not that it would matter.

  9. #34
    Cardio bunny Alex.V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RhodeHouse View Post
    If I understand what you are saying about the anabolic window, I disagree with you. That window is about an hour. You can prolong it a little bit, but not a lot.
    You misunderstood my point completely and jumped right back about two course levels.

    The window refers to your insulin sensitivity. Post-workout, you are very insulin sensitive. You want to replenish your glycogen stores.
    This is assuming you have done anything to deplete them. If you read my post, you'll note that I stated it would take both a high workout volume (far higher than most weight routines) and a low calorie diet to have any noticeable impact AT ALL on glycogen levels.

    Protein is not all that important inthat first hour. Carbs are very important.
    True.

    You want a 4/1 carb to protein ratio.
    This depends on the kind of exercise.


    If you want to try and prolong that window, this worked well for me.

    Immediately after workout 80g malto/20g whey
    30 minutes later 80g malto/20g whey
    30 minutes later 80g malto/20g whey 20g egg 20g soy (60g total)
    30 minutes later eat 2-3 protein sources and whatever carb source you can eat. This meal will be tough to eat.
    I don't see how overfeeding will "prolong" a period of insulin sensitivity, as you put it. In fact, it would likely have the opposite effect.

    I gained a lot of weight with this. I did this 3x per week after each workout.
    Of course you did. That's 4000+ extra calories a week from just shakes, along with whatever is in that big post-shake meal you list at the end.

    If you drink shakes thruout the day, I used whole wheat flour and whey 50/50 3-4x per day. The wheat flour is loaded with Glutamine. It's tough to drink, though. I switched to oatmeal. This will make you big!

    Like Built said... wheat flour is not exactly a great source of glutamine. In fact, 1 cup of flour has 4-5 grams of glutamic acid (out of 405 calories). 2 cups of skim milk has 3.5 grams of glutamic acids (out of 175 calories). No, not exactly loaded. As a content of protein, it's decently high, but a chicken breast has more glutamine in it than a bowl of wheat flour.

    And yeah, it'll make you big. It's calories.
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
    "Alex is all knowing and perfect"-----Jane (loosely paraphrased)
    -515/745/700 bench/deadlift/squat
    Current mile time: 4:23
    Marathons: 3
    Century races: 3
    Ironmans: 1
    Ultramarathons: 1
    Current supps: http://www.atlargenutrition.com/prod...covery/results

  10. #35
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    I'm 6'4" 304lbs at 14% bodyfat, So, it works fine.

    Galileo - Science? How about practice. The best way to find out if something works is to try it. Read all you want. Remember what the skinny, pencil-neck SCIENTISTS look like. Remember what they do. I know science has some sort of application to lifting weights. I got this shake plan from a chemist, who happens to PRACTICE what he preaches. Unfortunately, I only regurgetated (sp) what he told me. What I found out by trying it is, I got a huge insulin spike (I assume) with the first 2 post-workout shakes. Very light-headed and I felt like my body was just soaking up everything I put into it. I got a similar, but not as strong of an effect from the whole wheat/whey shakes. I lost bodyfat and got jacked! Science may tell us that it doesn't work, but practice and my waist size tells me I'm a large land mammal.

    Forgive my ignorance in the ways of science.

  11. #36
    Journalist galileo's Avatar
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    First, I know a ton of large guys in the gym who got that way through genetics, incorrect training, and drugs. I don't care how much they practice inefficient things, it doesn't mean they work for the average person. If they do work it doesn't mean they work ideally.

    Second, being a chemist doesn't qualify you to come up with a protocol. That's akin to saying that a basketball player can teach you the best golf swing. Undertanding "a sport" or understanding "an area of science" does not mean you understand it all. I work in a company with 1000 chemists and no more than a handful of them I feel could provide any solid information about weight training and physiology.

    Last, we are here to seek information not anecdote. I'll congratulate you on your great successes in training, but I won't jump on board with your methods just because you've done them, particularly when peer-reviewed studies indicate that this is not the most favorable method (for my goals). I've had my best successes with a solid pre-workout protocol and a much more conservative post-workout meal plan (as compared to an intense post-workout protocol). This is not to say it would work best for you (or some others), but your experience is not nearly enough to support a generic recommendation for all trainees.

    If you had some science to share, I'd be excited to see how it compared with other areas I've read. I won't say you're wrong (except the wheat thing - wheat allergies are all too common and the glutamine in wheat is negligible...let alone the efficacy of glutamine), but I'll say that there are more than one ways to skin a cat (although some ways better than others).

  12. #37
    Cardio bunny Alex.V's Avatar
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    EDIT***


    I had a reply. But honestly, Rhode, your post doesn't really even warrant one.

    I'm sometimes ashamed to be somebody who's involved in physical culture, given the tremendous meatheadedness that pervades it. No wonder why people who see me but don't know me sometimes case aspersions on my intellect.


    I mean, wow. Come on man, you're a big guy, you've been around. You know that half the **** you started out doing didn't work. every time you pick up something new it should add to your knowledge, don't be stubborn. That **** you did worked, definitely. But maybe not exactly why you thought it did. Nobody said you were wrong, re-read what I wrote.
    Last edited by Alex.V; 02-06-2007 at 08:55 PM.
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
    "Alex is all knowing and perfect"-----Jane (loosely paraphrased)
    -515/745/700 bench/deadlift/squat
    Current mile time: 4:23
    Marathons: 3
    Century races: 3
    Ironmans: 1
    Ultramarathons: 1
    Current supps: http://www.atlargenutrition.com/prod...covery/results

  13. #38
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    I never said it was solid gold, but it worked. It's another tool someone could add to their tool box. Drugs helped me some, for sure, but I am not a genetic monster. Hardly. My best description of myself is a bloated volleyball player. Athletic ability, maybe, but not really genetically gifted. One important thing I failed to mention is, ANYTHING will work as long as you go balls out and commit to it.

    I'm not sure what the meatheadedness thing was all about. But, it was probably an attempt to use big words and insult my intelligence. Well, I am a meathead when I want to be. It keeps people that I don't want around me, away.

    I didn't mean to kick sand in anyone's vagina. (please note my sarcasm)

  14. #39
    Cardio bunny Alex.V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RhodeHouse View Post
    ANYTHING will work as long as you go balls out and commit to it.
    True that.

    I'm not sure what the meatheadedness thing was all about. But, it was probably an attempt to use big words and insult my intelligence. Well, I am a meathead when I want to be. It keeps people that I don't want around me, away.
    Trust me bro, if I wanted to use big words, I would have used big words. And if I wanted to insult your intelligence, I would have called you a ****ing idiot, like I do with all the people who are ****ing idiots. You are clearly not a ****ing idiot, you just posted something that was a little.. meatheaded.

    Honestly, saying "Skinny, pencil necked scientists" is meatheadedness. Generalizing like that... there are some scientists out there who are anything but skinny and pencil necked, and coming out and implying "I don't need that ****, they're all a bunch of geeks who don't know what it's like to play this game" is a meatheaded mentality. The researchers can learn from the doers, and the doers from the researchers. That's the way it goes. And neither side has all the answers, so recognize the value in each.

    And there are some guys who consider themselves on the scientist side of things (such as myself) who could probably hang with you in the gym. At least.

    I didn't mean to kick sand in anyone's vagina. (please note my sarcasm)
    Nah, my vagina's entirely too moody to tolerate that. Kick sand in her and she'll go over there and beat your ass. Of course if she thought I wasn't using her full name, and referring to her as my vagina, it'd be my ass that was kicked.


    It's just hits me the wrong way when an otherwise smart and experienced guy gets stubborn about ****.

    peace.
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
    "Alex is all knowing and perfect"-----Jane (loosely paraphrased)
    -515/745/700 bench/deadlift/squat
    Current mile time: 4:23
    Marathons: 3
    Century races: 3
    Ironmans: 1
    Ultramarathons: 1
    Current supps: http://www.atlargenutrition.com/prod...covery/results

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