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Thread: Our purpose as a whole

  1. #51
    Senior Member hardgainer169's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diesel_dan View Post
    Has anyone ever wondered what life would be without emotions?
    One way to see is to look at animals. Though many people would argue with this, animals don't have emotions. Their motivating forces are survival and reproduction.

    Animals can't love, anger, or feel sorrow. If they appear to display such emotions, it's just a reaction to one of their needs being threatened.

    Then again, animals can't reason either, so it's hard to say. I don't think these two concepts are mutually exclusive, however.
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  2. #52
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    I think without emotion we would rely on logic. How about no holy wars, no strife due to emotion, no racism, bigotry, greed, hate, etc. Sound good? It does to me.

    I don't believe time travel is possible for a human. The tissue wouldn't be able to bend and twist and then reform properly in the new time period. Assuming that it works at all.

  3. #53
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    I disagree hardgainer. Animals reason all the time, though the scope is different than humans. Animals can also demonstrate affection and desire for attention, which I would attribute to their emotional aspects.

  4. #54
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    How do animals reason? Anything they do is instinctual, handed to them through their genes.

    As far as desire for attention, this is not emotion. It's simply the desire to be acknowledged by the being who provides free sustenance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardgainer169 View Post
    One way to see is to look at animals. Though many people would argue with this, animals don't have emotions. Their motivating forces are survival and reproduction.

    Animals can't love, anger, or feel sorrow. If they appear to display such emotions, it's just a reaction to one of their needs being threatened.
    The problem with that statement is that it can't be empiracally confirmed or denied. It is impossible to determine what is an animal is thinking about because that would involve introspection. This is bad for two reasons: 1) introspection = bad non-scientific technique, and 2) we don't have a way to reliably communicate with animals; we don't have a way to ask a dog "What are yout thinking right now?"

    Since humans are animals, you're idea suggests that humans have no emotions and that if humans appear to display emotions, it's justa reaction to one of their needs being threatened.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by betastas View Post
    I think without emotion we would rely on logic. How about no holy wars, no strife due to emotion, no racism, bigotry, greed, hate, etc. Sound good? It does to me.

    I don't believe time travel is possible for a human. The tissue wouldn't be able to bend and twist and then reform properly in the new time period. Assuming that it works at all.
    Ever seen Equilibrium? It gives an idea of how life would be without emotion/feeling. In that case it sucks.

    Also like RST said, reason lacking emotion is similar to a psychopath. In that case it also sucks, for the most part.
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardgainer169 View Post
    In that case it also sucks, for the most part.
    Well, not for them. They're not exactly sad about it

  8. #58
    Senior Member betastas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardgainer169 View Post
    How do animals reason? Anything they do is instinctual, handed to them through their genes.

    As far as desire for attention, this is not emotion. It's simply the desire to be acknowledged by the being who provides free sustenance.
    I argue that humans behave based on instincts generated by the genes handed to them. There is little difference.

    Chimpanzees, orangutans and other chimps and apes have been shown to possess fair reasoning and problem solving abilities. Do they not show emotions?
    An emotion is really only a hormonal response due to how information is processed in the brain. It can't be limited to only a specific animal, when other animals are shown to experience the same things.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedSpikeyThing View Post
    The problem with that statement is that it can't be empiracally confirmed or denied. It is impossible to determine what is an animal is thinking about because that would involve introspection. This is bad for two reasons: 1) introspection = bad non-scientific technique, and 2) we don't have a way to reliably communicate with animals; we don't have a way to ask a dog "What are yout thinking right now?"

    Since humans are animals, you're idea suggests that humans have no emotions and that if humans appear to display emotions, it's justa reaction to Ione of their needs being threatened.

    I think it's quite apparent that there's a difference between the human and the rest of the animal kingdom. Do you suppose that's the reason humans are dominant over the rest of the animal kingdom.

    I'll throw this in here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    In the philosophy of arguments, reason is the ability of the human mind to form and operate on concepts in abstraction, in varied accordance with rationality and logic —terms with which reason shares heritage. Reason has traditionally been claimed as distinctly human, and not to be found elsewhere in the animal world. Discussion and debate about the nature, limits and causes of reason could almost be said to define the main lines of historical philosophical discussion and debate.
    Notice how it specifically states the Human Mind. It's generally accepted that human beings are the only beings with the gift of reason.

    AS far as emotion goes, I can't give any proof that animals can't feel it, but I also can't give indisputable proof that humans are the only being given an immortal soul.
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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by betastas View Post
    I argue that humans behave based on instincts generated by the genes handed to them. There is little difference.

    Chimpanzees, orangutans and other chimps and apes have been shown to possess fair reasoning and problem solving abilities. Do they not show emotions?
    An emotion is really only a hormonal response due to how information is processed in the brain. It can't be limited to only a specific animal, when other animals are shown to experience the same things.
    But humans display a much wider range of emotions and they are much more in-depth and far more complicated then any chimp. Humans go out of there way; for example to make others of its own kind die. An extreme emotion of rage.

    While some animals can be violent they usually do not resort to killing unless needed for food or mating rights. Its very rare for animals to harm other animals or themselves without provacation. Humans, on the other hand can act out just to see how others will respond to them.

    Humans also are capable of caring and much more creativity then other animals etc. etc.
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  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by betastas View Post
    I argue that humans behave based on instincts generated by the genes handed to them. There is little difference.

    Chimpanzees, orangutans and other chimps and apes have been shown to possess fair reasoning and problem solving abilities. Do they not show emotions?
    An emotion is really only a hormonal response due to how information is processed in the brain. It can't be limited to only a specific animal, when other animals are shown to experience the same things.
    So you don't believe humans are motivated by emotion?

    I have a hard time seeing how the ability to solve simple problems (usually motivated by a morsel of food) displays the capacity for emotion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardgainer169 View Post
    I think it's quite apparent that there's a difference between the human and the rest of the animal kingdom. Do you suppose that's the reason humans are dominant over the rest of the animal kingdom.

    I'll throw this in here:



    Notice how it specifically states the Human Mind. It's generally accepted that human beings are the only beings with the gift of reason.

    AS far as emotion goes, I can't give any proof that animals can't feel it, but I also can't give indisputable proof that humans are the only being given an immortal soul.
    I agree.

    Animals can usually put "two and two" together. An example: Usually, when I go to this spot at this particular time theres food. So, from now on. I will always be sure to check this spot for food.

    Humans however, can stand back and ask. Why, is the food there at that particular time in the first place? I think our ability to ask "why" sets us apart from other animals. Animals don't care why something happens, they just care about the end result- more food which means better survival.
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  13. #63
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    I don't believe humans have souls. I don't believe animals do either. I don't believe in God or any religious denomination.

    I pose to you a simple problem.

    Why do predators attack prey only when it is advantageous to them? Does that not infer that a weighted calculation must have occurred, where the outcome of potential injury on the predators part was too high?

    The ability to reason is not solely based upon cognitive dissection of possibilities. Anytime a decision is made by an animal it can be said to have used reason. An typical predator's brain (a tiger) is merely less developed cognitively, but it still uses data input to decide possible outcomes. Otherwise, there would be no need for a brain as everything would be automated through simpler, lower processes.

    P.S. Wikipedia isn't a valid source unless it is properly referenced, which this article lacks.

  14. #64
    Is cutting down to 9% Jordanbcool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by betastas View Post
    I don't believe humans have souls. I don't believe animals do either. I don't believe in God or any religious denomination.

    I pose to you a simple problem.

    Why do predators attack prey only when it is advantageous to them? Does that not infer that a weighted calculation must have occurred, where the outcome of potential injury on the predators part was too high?

    The ability to reason is not solely based upon cognitive dissection of possibilities. Anytime a decision is made by an animal it can be said to have used reason. An typical predator's brain (a tiger) is merely less developed cognitively, but it still uses data input to decide possible outcomes. Otherwise, there would be no need for a brain as everything would be automated through simpler, lower processes.

    P.S. Wikipedia isn't a valid source unless it is properly referenced, which this article lacks.

    For the record. This type of discussion is why I made the thread and really pleases me.

    You're example doesnt really stand up though. Most animal behaivor is instinct rather then thinking power. Thinking takes too long. Humans, have the luxary of hiding out in tree's so they can think all the live long day, swoop down and eat the remains of the dead tiger

    Edit: The tiger would have an extremly simple way of "thinking". Again, revert to my "There is food over there, I will chase it, kill it and eat it". They don't think about anything other then that. Like, lets say.....they dont think about any obstacles that can be in their way that may stop them from eating said animal.
    Last edited by Jordanbcool; 12-10-2006 at 09:44 PM.
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  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardgainer169 View Post
    So you don't believe humans are motivated by emotion?
    humans are motivated by emotion. That's essentially the point now, isn't it? What do you think constructs the human body to behave like that? Genetic code and billions of years of evolution.


    Really, humans love to pretend to be special, to be so much more different than other animals. Humanity has a hard time coping with the scientific evidence that seemingly complex things can be explained fairly simply in terms of genetics, hormones and natural human development through the ages.

    The depth of reasoning is insignificant, so long as it occurs. There is no absolute level of reasoning. As one person has better reasoning capabilities than another, so too could there be the possibility of a different species in existence somewhere in the universe with reasoning capabilities far beyond ours, making ours appear as insignificant as a primitive animal's reasoning. For those who believe in God, think about His reasoning abilities. Would they not far surpass our own? Most assuredly. So does that mean we cannot reason since we don't reason on His level? Not at all. We're just not nearly as good.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by betastas View Post
    I don't believe humans have souls. I don't believe animals do either. I don't believe in God or any religious denomination.

    I pose to you a simple problem.

    Why do predators attack prey only when it is advantageous to them? Does that not infer that a weighted calculation must have occurred, where the outcome of potential injury on the predators part was too high?

    The ability to reason is not solely based upon cognitive dissection of possibilities. Anytime a decision is made by an animal it can be said to have used reason. An typical predator's brain (a tiger) is merely less developed cognitively, but it still uses data input to decide possible outcomes. Otherwise, there would be no need for a brain as everything would be automated through simpler, lower processes.

    P.S. Wikipedia isn't a valid source unless it is properly referenced, which this article lacks.
    A predator attacks prey at it's most advantageous possibility because of instinctive motivations. The animal has learned through generations that it is the best time to attack because it will yield the least effort with the best payoff.

    I disagree that an animal can predict what will happen in a situation. As is said before, most of the animal's decision is based off instinct...not reason.

    You can dispute the wikipedia source if you'd like, it's just where I turned for a quick definition. I'll do a little better research maybe some other time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardgainer169 View Post
    I think it's quite apparent that there's a difference between the human and the rest of the animal kingdom. Do you suppose that's the reason humans are dominant over the rest of the animal kingdom.
    I think one of the biggest differences between humans and animals is that humans don't want to be considered the same as animals. We, as a race, suffere from a superiority complex. Humans always think they are better than other animals simply because they can think differently.

    Humans have a tendancy of continually changing the criteria that keep them different from other animals. These criteria have changed as more similarities between animals and humans have been found. I'll try and find a source on this if you would like more information.


    Also, that definition is circular. It defines reason in terms of only humans having it and then continues on to say that no other animals have been shown to be able to reason. By definition they can't....
    AS far as emotion goes, I can't give any proof that animals can't feel it, but I also can't give indisputable proof that humans are the only being given an immortal soul.
    What do you mean by immortal soul? There is no physical soul, so you can neither prove nor disprove the presence of one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by betastas View Post
    humans are motivated by emotion. That's essentially the point now, isn't it? What do you think constructs the human body to behave like that? Genetic code and billions of years of evolution.


    Really, humans love to pretend to be special, to be so much more different than other animals. Humanity has a hard time coping with the scientific evidence that seemingly complex things can be explained fairly simply in terms of genetics, hormones and natural human development through the ages.

    The depth of reasoning is insignificant, so long as it occurs. There is no absolute level of reasoning. As one person has better reasoning capabilities than another, so too could there be the possibility of a different species in existence somewhere in the universe with reasoning capabilities far beyond ours, making ours appear as insignificant as a primitive animal's reasoning. For those who believe in God, think about His reasoning abilities. Would they not far surpass our own? Most assuredly. So does that mean we cannot reason since we don't reason on His level? Not at all. We're just not nearly as good.
    I'm kinda confused....I was arguing that animals dont have anywhere near our level of cognitive capacity for reasoning and problem solving etc. etc.

    And It better well stand up! I have to have SOME benifit over those stupid flying birds that I'm so jealous of

    EDIT: I thought/think you'd agree with me.....after all. We are the dominant species because of it.
    Last edited by Jordanbcool; 12-10-2006 at 09:51 PM.
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  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by betastas
    I argue that humans behave based on instincts generated by the genes handed to them. There is little difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by betastas
    humans are motivated by emotion. That's essentially the point now, isn't it?
    So which is it?

    God gave humans the gift of reasoning, so that they would be dominant to all other animals. This is the order he set forth.

    As far as God and his ability to reason, it is a moot point because God is omniscient, meaning he knows ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING. And that means everything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardgainer169 View Post
    A predator attacks prey at it's most advantageous possibility because of instinctive motivations. The animal has learned through generations that it is the best time to attack because it will yield the least effort with the best payoff.
    Could you call that "hardwired" reasoning?

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    Is cutting down to 9% Jordanbcool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedSpikeyThing View Post
    I think one of the biggest differences between humans and animals is that humans don't want to be considered the same as animals. We, as a race, suffere from a superiority complex. Humans always think they are better than other animals simply because they can think differently.
    .
    I dont like this statement. We arent that egotistical. There are alot of legitimate and practical arguments why we are the bigger thinkers in the animal kingdom.

    Where do I even start....look at the amount of tools we've invented to make our lives easier. Look at all the complex strategies we've developed to cope with our enviornment.

    The evidence is in everyday life. If it werent, we wouldnt be on this computer having this discussion.
    Last edited by Jordanbcool; 12-10-2006 at 09:55 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardgainer169 View Post
    The animal has learned through generations that it is the best time to attack because it will yield the least effort with the best payoff.
    Quote Originally Posted by hardgainer169 View Post
    God gave humans the gift of reasoning, so that they would be dominant to all other animals. This is the order he set forth.
    So did the animal evolve? Or did God make them lesser than humans?

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    Senior Member hardgainer169's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedSpikeyThing View Post
    I think one of the biggest differences between humans and animals is that humans don't want to be considered the same as animals. We, as a race, suffere from a superiority complex. Humans always think they are better than other animals simply because they can think differently.

    Humans have a tendancy of continually changing the criteria that keep them different from other animals. These criteria have changed as more similarities between animals and humans have been found. I'll try and find a source on this if you would like more information.


    Also, that definition is circular. It defines reason in terms of only humans having it and then continues on to say that no other animals have been shown to be able to reason. By definition they can't....

    What do you mean by immortal soul? There is no physical soul, so you can neither prove nor disprove the presence of one.
    The definitions means that because animals haven't been shown to possess it, then they don't possess it.

    I'm not sure how you believe it is circular reasoning?

    Exactly, I know that humans possess a soul but I can't prove it. That's what I mean to say.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordanbcool View Post
    I dont like this statement. We arent that egotistical. There are alot of legitimate and practical arguments why we are the bigger thinkers in the animal kingdom.
    I meant that humans don't want to be considered the same/similar as animals on a genetic level and look for every possibilty to seperate themselves from animals. Most people, myself included, have a hard time coping with the fact that we are something like 99.9% the same as a monkey.

    Also, this thread is moving quick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hardgainer169 View Post
    The definitions means that because animals haven't been shown to possess it, then they don't possess it.

    I'm not sure how you believe it is circular reasoning?

    Exactly, I know that humans possess a soul but I can't prove it. That's what I mean to say.
    Lets not get into the whole human/animal soul thing. Thats another can of worms.

    If animals were capable of even basic reasoning or "thinking outside the box" they should also be able to convey that to us. So, we would know. Animals again, gain most of their knowledge from instinct not learnt processes (atleast not as much as we do).
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