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Thread: Fool Proof Program Design by Jimmy Smith - December 27th 2006

  1. #51
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    Maybe this is too simple an analysis...but it does it really matter whether you use high reps or low reps for cutting?

    If you take in less calories than you burn, you will lose weight. I think we can all agree on that. Therefore the high reps/low reps is more or less an academic debate no?

    In regards to keeping muscle and recovery it should be the same. I doubt there is noticable difference between doing 5 sets of 5 and doing 5 sets of 15...all other things being the same. The fifteens are going to be noticably lighter than the five's but longer, thus stressing the muscle in a different way. In other words I don't believe you are going to burn more calories with one type of training enough to make a significant difference overall. Were that possible, we wouldn't need to diet that much. We'd simply train one way for mass and then the other way for cutting.

    You can train long or hard but generally not both. If you find that one type of training is more stressful extra rest days or taking in more calories on the days you train could alleviate that...or you could simply switch over correct?

    I've always been a fan of KISS (meaning not overthinking it)...it's not rocket science. Train, eat and rest. If you hit a plateau work with those variables until you grow again or lose weight depending on your goals.. And the longer you train the more you should learn about how your body responds.

    Unless you are getting ready for a show, I don't see how this wouldn't work.

    But maybe I'm missing something...?
    Last edited by Songsangnim; 01-07-2007 at 10:47 PM.

  2. #52
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    You're missing something.

    On a cut, the body wants to toss LBM to conserve energy, particularly as you get very lean.

    Now, at higher levels of bodyfat, and particularly if you're a newbie, sure, eat a little less and move a little more, you'll drop weight. Iron cardio can be used to create a significant portion of the caloric deficit.

    But as you get leaner and leaner, you need a stronger signal to tell the body it really needs to hang onto that muscle, and lifting a light weight over and over and over won't send this signal. You need a big muscle to lift a big weight. So you need to lift that big weight so the body understand you need that big muscle.

    Make sense?

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Built View Post
    You're missing something.

    On a cut, the body wants to toss LBM to conserve energy, particularly as you get very lean.

    Now, at higher levels of bodyfat, and particularly if you're a newbie, sure, eat a little less and move a little more, you'll drop weight. Iron cardio can be used to create a significant portion of the caloric deficit.

    But as you get leaner and leaner, you need a stronger signal to tell the body it really needs to hang onto that muscle, and lifting a light weight over and over and over won't send this signal. You need a big muscle to lift a big weight. So you need to lift that big weight so the body understand you need that big muscle.

    Make sense?
    I understand that. Personally I'm a devotee to low reps/high weight. But this seems in contradiction to what you are doing for say quads and certain other bodyparts. You're doing higher reps if I understood you right since you state that low reps don't work as well to 'wake up' these muscles.


    My second point is this. Most people don't want to get extremely lean as in contest shape. Apart from other issues that's impossible to maintain constantly. Which is why I mentioned getting ready for a show as an exception. (Apropos of what we are discussing here... you look amazingly ripped for a natty in that avatar. Don't you find that difficult to stay that lean for a long time...or do you?)

    Keeping that in mind, couldn't higher reps (10-15) work well to par somebody down to say about 10% or so bodyfat (male that is)? I'd think most people on this site would be happy with that,to say nothing of the average person.
    Last edited by Songsangnim; 01-08-2007 at 12:15 AM.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Songsangnim View Post
    I understand that. Personally I'm a devotee to low reps/high weight. But this seems in contradiction to what you are doing for say quads and certain other bodyparts. You're doing higher reps if I understood you right since you state that low reps don't work as well to 'wake up' these muscles.
    I'm bulking. I have extra food for these higher reps and extra volume.



    I love bulking. <eats cookie>

    Quote Originally Posted by Songsangnim View Post


    My second point is this. Most people don't want to get extremely lean as in contest shape. Apart from other issues that's impossible to maintain constantly. Which is why I mentioned getting ready for a show as an exception. (Apropos of what we are discussing here... you look amazingly ripped for a natty in that avatar. Don't you find that difficult to stay that lean for a long time...or do you?)
    I gain about 10-12 lbs during bulks, then I cut again.

    I could easily maintain about 5 lbs heavier than my pix. And thank you very much for the props!

    Quote Originally Posted by Songsangnim View Post

    Keeping that in mind, couldn't higher reps (10-15) work well to par somebody down to say about 10% or so bodyfat (male that is)? I'd think most people on this site would be happy with that,to say nothing of the average person.
    I think a mix of both will be fine for that, sure. My feeling is that you need to adjust workout volume down as the cut progresses, but hey, I'm learning as I go.


  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Built View Post
    Awesome.

    So, this metabolic work you have your clients do on cuts - what does it accomplish - does it simply burn off more calories, or is it somehow protective of BMR and LBM?
    It's alittle bit of both, remember anything can be anabolic can build both muscle and burn fat.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Built View Post
    Okay, so on a cut, where the focus switches from hypertrophy to prevention of muscle loss, it strikes me that the first option would be preferable, right? For the most part, there's just not enough food going in to maintain anabolism to counter a lot of mechanical damage - am I reading this right? It at least seems to make sense in my little brain.

    Yep Yep
    And I imagine you adjust your approach as a cut progresses, right? At uber-lean levels of bodyfat, muscle loss becomes more and more of a concern. Is your approach to kick-start the cut with more metabolic work, then move toward more of a "muscle-protection" strategy as the cut progresses - cutting down on mechanical damage, volume, and metabolic work and focussing instead on keeping precious LBM as the last bits of fluff are gradually coaxed off?
    More or less, it really is client dependent, if they are dropping fat well we will continue. If not we will add some different methods but this is pretty much the basis
    .




    ROFLMFAO!

    Hope this helps you out

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Songsangnim View Post
    Maybe this is too simple an analysis...but it does it really matter whether you use high reps or low reps for cutting?

    If you take in less calories than you burn, you will lose weight. I think we can all agree on that. Therefore the high reps/low reps is more or less an academic debate no?

    In regards to keeping muscle and recovery it should be the same. I doubt there is noticable difference between doing 5 sets of 5 and doing 5 sets of 15...all other things being the same. The fifteens are going to be noticably lighter than the five's but longer, thus stressing the muscle in a different way. In other words I don't believe you are going to burn more calories with one type of training enough to make a significant difference overall. Were that possible, we wouldn't need to diet that much. We'd simply train one way for mass and then the other way for cutting.

    You can train long or hard but generally not both. If you find that one type of training is more stressful extra rest days or taking in more calories on the days you train could alleviate that...or you could simply switch over correct?

    I've always been a fan of KISS (meaning not overthinking it)...it's not rocket science. Train, eat and rest. If you hit a plateau work with those variables until you grow again or lose weight depending on your goals.. And the longer you train the more you should learn about how your body responds.

    Unless you are getting ready for a show, I don't see how this wouldn't work.

    But maybe I'm missing something...?
    Your body hates calorie restriction, you must reach an intensity thershold that allows you to hold onto your muscle while burning your fat. For that simple point we must use both methods

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Songsangnim View Post
    I understand that. Personally I'm a devotee to low reps/high weight. But this seems in contradiction to what you are doing for say quads and certain other bodyparts. You're doing higher reps if I understood you right since you state that low reps don't work as well to 'wake up' these muscles.


    My second point is this. Most people don't want to get extremely lean as in contest shape. Apart from other issues that's impossible to maintain constantly. Which is why I mentioned getting ready for a show as an exception. (Apropos of what we are discussing here... you look amazingly ripped for a natty in that avatar. Don't you find that difficult to stay that lean for a long time...or do you?)

    Keeping that in mind, couldn't higher reps (10-15) work well to par somebody down to say about 10% or so bodyfat (male that is)? I'd think most people on this site would be happy with that,to say nothing of the average person.
    Males will generally do well with higher reps. The problem is that most of the average people train this way, thereofre they won't drop much fat without changing the stimulus. Your right, most people do not want to be in contest shape but wouldn't agree that the majority of people want to be in beach shape with a "Men's Fitness" body. That is lower than 10% and higher then contest shape. I have also never met someone who didn't want to be leaner or bigger regardless.

  9. #59
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    Okay, since I'm planning to start my cut in a week, let's get a plan of attack going here.

    I begin with somewhat higher volume - I'm at about 20% bodyfat, so I'm not lean enough yet to worry hugely about LBM. I get in a mix of higher rep (aka "metabolic" type work) and lower rep work, while gradually building up my cardio base and on a modest deficit.

    As I drop fat, I gradually ease off the reps, focussing on slower negs and shorter sets to hang onto LBM, and easing up into the higher intensity types of cardio (HIIT, Tabata, hill repeats...).

    Sound like a plan to you Jimmy?

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Built View Post
    Okay, since I'm planning to start my cut in a week, let's get a plan of attack going here.

    I begin with somewhat higher volume - I'm at about 20% bodyfat, so I'm not lean enough yet to worry hugely about LBM. I get in a mix of higher rep (aka "metabolic" type work) and lower rep work, while gradually building up my cardio base and on a modest deficit.

    As I drop fat, I gradually ease off the reps, focussing on slower negs and shorter sets to hang onto LBM, and easing up into the higher intensity types of cardio (HIIT, Tabata, hill repeats...).

    Sound like a plan to you Jimmy?
    Perfect! I look forward to seeing how you progress. You might consider using some slow concentrics in the first higher volume phase as this most likely would be where you focus on your diet more.

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  12. #62
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    Higher reps have nothing to do with fat loss.

  13. #63
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    Don't like the workout routines either. Not a very good article IMO.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Built View Post
    Awesome.

    I'll be posting it up in my journal, and I'll pm you an invite when it's up.

    Cheers

    MariAnne
    Please do

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mackeys View Post
    Don't like the workout routines either. Not a very good article IMO.
    Well please explain.

    Kc

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortifiedIron View Post
    Well please explain.

    Kc
    Poor choice of exercises and just a poor routine, it would take pages to comment on all it's flaws.....better to throw it away and start over.
    Plus saying 8-12 reps is for fat loss discredits the entire article.


    "Editors Note: This article was written with the beginner in mind. It is for someone who has not grasped the fundamental concepts of exercise and how to apply them".



    This alone cracks me up once they list a workout routing that will confuse most trainirs let alone a beginner.....terrible article.
    Last edited by Mackeys; 01-08-2007 at 05:42 PM.

  17. #67
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    Your indepth analysis is most helpful. If you'd actually spend some time to type out a meaningful post I might take you seriously.

    Don't respond if you plan on making another quick reply. Your post will be edited.
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    So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
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  18. #68
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    what is your input on diets, im using a high protien/fat very low carb approch with 1 full cheat day on the weekends, my diet consists of alot of eggs, cottege cheese, beef, chicken, tuna, peanuts, peanut butter, OO, vegys, and the occasional fruit for the workout. i know some people are for and some are against this type of dieting, built i believe is for it.

    im going to guestimate im getting 250 grams protien per day, 100 grams of fat, and sub 100 grams of carbs.

    as you both seem to agree, using heavy weight and low reps, but then again i ALWAYS use heavy weight and low reps. no strength loss 2 weeks in, but not much change other then stomach bloat gone.
    2000 or bust

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumprrp View Post
    what is your input on diets, im using a high protien/fat very low carb approch with 1 full cheat day on the weekends, my diet consists of alot of eggs, cottege cheese, beef, chicken, tuna, peanuts, peanut butter, OO, vegys, and the occasional fruit for the workout. i know some people are for and some are against this type of dieting, built i believe is for it.

    im going to guestimate im getting 250 grams protien per day, 100 grams of fat, and sub 100 grams of carbs.

    as you both seem to agree, using heavy weight and low reps, but then again i ALWAYS use heavy weight and low reps. no strength loss 2 weeks in, but not much change other then stomach bloat gone.
    High Protein/High fat is going to be your best option. Be careful not to limit yourself to just a cheat day on the weekends. In my "U" diet, you can eat the carbs you want but it is in a cycling approach. I'd also be careful with the amount of dairy and peanuts you are consuming, they both tend to be a very allergenic food, which is not a response that you want. Fruit is good but make sue it is has "berry" at the end of it. Keep the protein high.

  20. #70
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    peanuts arent daily and the only dairy is maybe 1 cup of CC a day. your not a fan of apples and bananas?
    2000 or bust

  21. #71
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    My guess is that apples and bananas are higher in carb, and that berries, in addition to being lower carb and higher in fibre, are high in antioxidants.

  22. #72
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    gotcha

    better start reading this "advance sports nutrition" book i purchased, im 15 pages in and this stuff IS advanced LOL! the author reccomends 4-600 grams of carbs daily for strength athletes lol

    anyways back on topic sry
    2000 or bust

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumprrp View Post
    peanuts arent daily and the only dairy is maybe 1 cup of CC a day. your not a fan of apples and bananas?
    I wasn't saying that peanuts are diary lol, I was saying that they both are generally allergenic. It's not that I'm against apples and bananas it's just that the "berry" family is so good for you.

  24. #74
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    oh lol i know man i know there not dairy, ill pick up some berrys for sure.
    2000 or bust

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stumprrp View Post
    oh lol i know man i know there not dairy, ill pick up some berrys for sure.
    I was going to say lol

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