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Thread: Creatine and half squats...

  1. #26
    Banned must_eat's Avatar
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    i did read the thread a********* and i get all my information from this site because mostly everyone except for the noobs know what theyre talking about, im no expert so dont flame me almighty.

  2. #27
    *Bingo Fuel clawhammer_33's Avatar
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    Relax, it wasn't a flame at all.
    Face it: biceps are the muscle that classifies you as a muscle man.

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  3. #28
    Banned must_eat's Avatar
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    ok, my bad.

  4. #29
    Senior Member 1mmort4l's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by must_eat View Post
    yeah if you stop taking creatine then you lose the "water weight" and muscle so you have to keep on taking creatine so you wont shrink.

    creatine is more expensive then protein so its better to not even start the creatine becaue u will eventally just lose all the water weight muscle anyways.

    atf squats are the best and you should only do atf. anything else will hurt your knees.


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  5. #30
    ANVIL POWER Detard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by must_eat View Post
    yeah if you stop taking creatine then you lose the "water weight" and muscle so you have to keep on taking creatine so you wont shrink.

    creatine is more expensive then protein so its better to not even start the creatine becaue u will eventally just lose all the water weight muscle anyways.

    atf squats are the best and you should only do atf. anything else will hurt your knees.

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  6. #31
    Senior Member Natetaco's Avatar
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    About the whole ATF and parallel squat thing, I would say if you havent done ATF then you should. I did them for a couple of months and they were great, then i switched to powerlifting and started doing a wider stance squat that my flexability would only let me go parallel. I have heard many places that full squats are better for your knees than parallel, but i know many many people who have been donig parallel for 10+ years and dont have knee problems, i guess it just varys.
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  7. #32
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    Mr Sensei is bang on the money...again.


    For me, doing full squats, even crouching down to talk to one of my nephews or nieces, is too hard on my knees. It literally feels like they are being caught in a vice. So I do a few inches past parallel. Come March of next year I will have been lifting for nearly 20 years...and I've never had knee problems in all that time.

    To each his own.

  8. #33
    Tearing **** Up FortifiedIron's Avatar
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    Some of you guys mind find this stuff interesting:

    Quote Originally Posted by FortifiedIron,Jan 13 2007, 07:04 PM
    Chandler, TJ, Wilson, GD, & Stone, MH, The effect of the squat exercise on knee stability. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, 21(3), 1989.

    Past studies have produced conflicting results as to the effect of squat exercises on knee stability. One hundred male and female college students were measured using a knee ligament arthrometer on nine tests of knee stability. Over an 8-wk training program, full or half squats did not consistently affect knee stability compared to non-squatting controls. To measure the effect of long-term squat training 27 male powerlifters (14 Elite or Master Class) and 28 male weightlifters (8 Elite or Master Class) were measured on the same tests. Powerlifters were significantly tighter than controls on the anterior drawer at 90 degrees of knee flexion. Both powerlifters and weightlifters were significantly tighter than controls on the quadriceps active drawer at 90 degrees of knee flexion. Data on powerlifters and weightlifters were also analyzed by years of experience and skill level. No effect of squat training on knee stability was demonstrated in any of the groups tested.
    --------

    ESCAMILLA, R. F. Knee biomechanics of the dynamic squat exercise. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc., Vol. 33, No. 1, 2001, pp. 127-141.

    Purpose: Because a strong and stable knee is paramount to an athlete's or patient's success, an understanding of knee biomechanics while performing the squat is helpful to therapists, trainers, sports medicine physicians, researchers, coaches, and athletes who are interested in closed kinetic chain exercises, knee rehabilitation, and training for sport. The purpose of this review was to examine knee biomechanics during the dynamic squat exercise.

    Methods: Tibiofemoral shear and compressive forces, patellofemoral compressive force, knee muscle activity, and knee stability were reviewed and discussed relative to athletic performance, injury potential, and rehabilitation.

    Results: Low to moderate posterior shear forces, restrained primarily by the posterior cruciate ligament (PCL), were generated throughout the squat for all knee flexion angles. Low anterior shear forces, restrained primarily by the anterior cruciate ligament (ACL), were generated between 0 and 60[degrees] knee flexion. Patellofemoral compressive forces and tibiofemoral compressive and shear forces progressively increased as the knees flexed and decreased as the knees extended, reaching peak values near maximum knee flexion. Hence, training the squat in the functional range between 0 and 50[degrees] knee flexion may be appropriate for many knee rehabilitation patients, because knee forces were minimum in the functional range. Quadriceps, hamstrings, and gastrocnemius activity generally increased as knee flexion increased, which supports athletes with healthy knees performing the parallel squat (thighs parallel to ground at maximum knee flexion) between 0 and 100[degrees] knee flexion. Furthermore, it was demonstrated that the parallel squat was not injurious to the healthy knee.

    Conclusions: The squat was shown to be an effective exercise to employ during cruciate ligament or patellofemoral rehabilitation. For athletes with healthy knees, performing the parallel squat is recommended over the deep squat, because injury potential to the menisci and cruciate and collateral ligaments may increase with the deep squat. The squat does not compromise knee stability, and can enhance stability if performed correctly. Finally, the squat can be effective in developing hip, knee, and ankle musculature, because moderate to high quadriceps, hamstrings, and gastrocnemius activity were produced during the squat.
    [snapback]670459[/snapback]
    Quote Originally Posted by Madrasi,Nov 15 2003, 09:59 AM
    the reason letting your knees drift in Oly squats is VERY simple. When your knees drift, you place them in an awkward position (when bearing load) in which forces parallel to the ground and over the knee itself will create shearing forces.
    Note in the drawing that if the thigh is at parallel, the force of gravity pulls 100% in the x direction (i drew from an odd angle so X is up down and Y is left right). That means all of the force is placed over the knee cap directly down... greatest shearing forces. If you go below parallel, then what happens is as you can see, the Fy and Fx change magnitude and direction slightly to lessen the load and pull back on the kneecaps, actually reducing some of the shearing force.
    Also, notice how powerlifters mention to push your legs apart? Or how even when you rock bottom when your knees hit about 90 degrees they tend to come in?
    Simple reason for that t=rxF or torque=rFsinX. The sine of X is greatest (in our range of motion) at 90 degrees... meaning the MAXIMUM torque (which does the greatest damage to our knees) is done at parallel. Usually people tell you to go a little below parallel for that reason. Changing direction at 90 degrees does the most damage to your knees. Also, because of the direction of r and F, the torque is directed inwards, so your knees tend to buckle in. Hope this clears a few things up.


    [snapback]124846[/snapback]
    Generally from all the stuff I've seen this far on the topic, the knee is at its most exposed position at approx. 90 degrees. When your standing or squatted at your best 'passive' ROM your knee joint is more stable.

    Wilk K et al. A comparison of tibiofemoral joint forces and electromyographic activity during open and closed kinetic chain exercises. Am J Sports Med; 24(4):518-527 - Actually shows that a leg extension is putting more shear pressure on the knee than a squat.

    And of course Zatsiorsky, Siff, and Verkhoshansky all suggest squatting to full flexion.

    Hope that helped some people.

    Kc

  9. #34
    Eat Chicken Chris686's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortifiedIron View Post
    Some of you guys mind find this stuff interesting:





    Generally from all the stuff I've seen this far on the topic, the knee is at its most exposed position at approx. 90 degrees. When your standing or squatted at your best 'passive' ROM your knee joint is more stable.

    Wilk K et al. A comparison of tibiofemoral joint forces and electromyographic activity during open and closed kinetic chain exercises. Am J Sports Med; 24(4):518-527 - Actually shows that a leg extension is putting more shear pressure on the knee than a squat.

    And of course Zatsiorsky, Siff, and Verkhoshansky all suggest squatting to full flexion.

    Hope that helped some people.

    Kc

    Good post. I do agree about leg extensions. I haven't done them in a long time due to the stress it put on my knees.

    I do tend to believe full squats are better, but that's only based on my personal experience. My left knee would always bother me when I would go to parallel. I'd have some pretty severe tendonitis for a few days afterwards as well. I switched to full, and the pain was non-existent.

    No pain (For me at least), and a better workout. Seems like a no-brainer.

    But I'd have to say that if what you're doing now gives you no discomfort in the knees, go ahead and keep doing it.
    Last edited by Chris686; 01-13-2007 at 09:01 PM.
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  10. #35
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    I'll just throw this out there and see what everyone thinks.

    When I sqyat ATF my knees crack on pretty much every rep, but when I squat parallel they don't crack at all. Any ideas?

  11. #36
    Tearing **** Up FortifiedIron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedSpikeyThing View Post
    I'll just throw this out there and see what everyone thinks.

    When I sqyat ATF my knees crack on pretty much every rep, but when I squat parallel they don't crack at all. Any ideas?
    Does it hurt? If not dont worry about it.

    I know plenty of olympic lifting coaches and olympic lifters that have had t his problem their whole life.. and been training heavy for 40+ years with no pain or injury.

    Kc

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