The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #26
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    Oh okay, I didn't know that you had tired 165. But keep working hard.

  2. #27
    Senior Member teenathlete3030's Avatar
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    I'm gonna miss today's workout because of illness, possibly strep throat. I should be back by wednesday I hope.
    6'0" 180
    Vertical 29" Running= 37" 40= 4.70
    Big 3: Squat= 320
    ........Bench= 275
    ........Deadlift= 350ish?
    OL: .....Clean= 270 150%
    ...........Snatch= 200 111%

  3. #28
    King Nothing ericg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarriorWalls View Post
    1st video - Unless you were just showing form, that was horrible. More weight u add will really show your form. But you need to at least doing warm up sets at 135. (we're both about the same size, but u got me by about 7 pounds and a couple inches)

    2nd video (clean) - Was better, but when you go to push press, don't move your foot back. Press up, come back down, press back up.

    I can't really say anything on snatch because I don't do that.
    And you might get stronger if you don't take those long of breaks between reps, keep your exercises intense. (Unless you were just showing form.)
    There is nothing wrong with doing a split jerk.
    Current Stats --------------- Training Goals: Improve athletic conditioning.
    Squat - 305lbs - 1/23/06 ----- 335
    Deadlift - 415lbs - 2/4/06 ---- 435
    Bench - 90s*7 ----------------- 100s*5
    Weight - 208 ------------------ 190
    Height - 5'10"

    My Journal|My Routine|My FitDay
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  4. #29
    Senior Member JHarris's Avatar
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    A few thoughts on these lifts:

    1. Your elbows need to come through a lot faster. There is an exercise designed to help you with this - the clean turnover. Take about half of what you can upright row for 8 reps and work on pulling it up and flipping your elbows fast.

    2. You DO NOT need to rip it from the ground. This is a common misconception. In fact, it is better to start off a bit slower and accelerate once you get to just below your knees. This leads me into my biggest complaint of your form...

    3. Your hips pop up a little too fast. I suspect this is from trying to rip the bar off the ground. Are you doing clean/snatch pulls? (A deadlift into a powershrug with differing hand widths). If you aren't, you should be. If you are, focus on coming up more evenly with your hips and knees.

    4. You are rolling onto the balls of your feet early. Push through your heels until the last possible second. This will keep your body in a better position.

    5. When you catch the weight, let it actually land on your shoulders as opposed to first catching it with your arms and lowering it to your shoulders. This will protect you from having tendonitis in your wrists/elbows and will also allow for more weight eventually. Further, its hard to tell, but I think you are gripping the weight the whole time. When you move into the catch, only hold it on your shoulders with a few fingers since you seem to lack the flexibility to hold it there comfortably with a full grip. (Most guys have a hard time with this.)

    6. More weight = better is also a bad misconception. Most who have ever trained for olympic lifting at a real Oly gym started with a broomstick and worked up. Go heavy on the pulls, but dont feel bad about being light on the full lifts.

    7. To clear this up: A full clean or snatch is catching the bar underneath parallel. A power clean or snatch is anything above parallel. To do a full clean/snatch with light weight, you catch and ride the weight down. You still put full energy into the explosion though.

    Good luck with your training. Im glad to see you care about your form. You seem to be a strong guy and Im sure you'll make huge strides if you just keep a good eye on getting better.

    Jay

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRic View Post
    A Power clean you don't squat to catch the bar. or you squat very little to catch the bar. no more than a 1/4 or 1/2 squat.
    mmhmm
    19 yrs old
    5'9'' @ 165 lbs
    bf%: ?

    BB Bench Press: 275 lbs
    ATG Squat: 355 lbs
    BB Deadlift: 335 lbs

  6. #31
    Senior Member teenathlete3030's Avatar
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    I was lifting today for track. Everyone was supposed to be doing powercleans, so I decided that would be good, even though my program says deadlift.

    My hams were still a little sore from squatting monday, so I decided to do less weight and just snatch. That worked pretty good because I was snatching more 90% of them were power cleaning. It makes you feel good, but then you think, "wow my school sucks." 70 people with the worst form you can possible imagine, with one or two strength trainers trying their hardest to teach proper form. Rounded backs, and deadlifts followed by reverse curls. It got better by the end, but wow.

    I ended up snatching 125 for 3 reps. Tried 135 and didn't quite get it. I really think that snatching is helping my form, since to do it you really need to focus and work fast. The form felt good, and when I tried a couple light cleans at the end, the form felt much better.
    6'0" 180
    Vertical 29" Running= 37" 40= 4.70
    Big 3: Squat= 320
    ........Bench= 275
    ........Deadlift= 350ish?
    OL: .....Clean= 270 150%
    ...........Snatch= 200 111%

  7. #32
    Senior Member Sleepy Guy's Avatar
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    I do not think there is any lifts technically harder then the clean and jerk or snatch.

    Why not do another video to show progress?

  8. #33
    Senior Member teenathlete3030's Avatar
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    I will be sure to the next time I go. I will try to bring a better camera, not the cell phone quality.
    6'0" 180
    Vertical 29" Running= 37" 40= 4.70
    Big 3: Squat= 320
    ........Bench= 275
    ........Deadlift= 350ish?
    OL: .....Clean= 270 150%
    ...........Snatch= 200 111%

  9. #34
    Wannabebig Member MonsterMash's Avatar
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    I was going to say that the one thing that I would suggest would be fast arms. By that, I mean when racking the weight on your chest, throw the elbows into position very fast. If you watch the olympics, some athletes aren't very strong, but at the last surge they can get just enough propulsion on the bar to get their arms racked because they are so fast. Hopefully, Chris from At Large is going to post some of my Olympic training soon.

    Good-luck though, I was pretty impressed.

  10. #35
    Senior Member teenathlete3030's Avatar
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    I could defenitely tell the elbows were getting faster on the lighter weights (when I would try to show some other people how to do it right instead of a stand and reverse curl). The elbows are definitely getting faster than in the first video.
    6'0" 180
    Vertical 29" Running= 37" 40= 4.70
    Big 3: Squat= 320
    ........Bench= 275
    ........Deadlift= 350ish?
    OL: .....Clean= 270 150%
    ...........Snatch= 200 111%

  11. #36
    Senior Member JHarris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonsterMash View Post
    If you watch the olympics, some athletes aren't very strong, but at the last surge they can get just enough propulsion on the bar to get their arms racked because they are so fast.
    Any olympic lifter that is actually in the Olympics is freakily strong for whatever their size is. Yes, they are extremely fast in getting back underneath the bar, but they all still all have very large numbers in the full olympic style squat (usually at or better than 3x their bodyweight, depending on their weight class.)

    I think what you are referring to here are the lifters who seem to just get the weight high enough to slip under the bar versus lifters who get a more clear pop before catching it a bit higher and riding it down. The former are still very explosive on the up portion of the movement and since explosiveness is just force being applied to the bar and force = mass x accel, they must be very strong to be able to generate the high amount of accel on an already heavy mass. 85kg lifters - which is roughly 187lbs, at the olympic level, are doing 200kg (440lbs) c&js. Its not often you see someone deadlifting 440 and doing it fast enough to make the bar jump, let alone someone under 200 lbs doing it.

    Jay

  12. #37
    Senior Member teenathlete3030's Avatar
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    I hit 185 today!!! We had strength testing this week Mon-Thurs.

    Rules: 3 attempts. Pick a weight, if you make it, you can add weight, still onlly a total of 3 attempts. You get a redo if there's a mistake in spotting or weight on the bar.

    First attempt= 150 No problem. Second attempt= 165 Felt good. Third attempt= 175. Better than I though I would do. Strength coach commented on good form. Trust me, from this guy, that's saying something.

    Just for my own mental purposes, I tried 185...got it. Then I tried 200, not quite, although I could have gotten it if I dipped lower to catch the bar (not quick enough yet).

    No video of the lift, unfortunately.
    6'0" 180
    Vertical 29" Running= 37" 40= 4.70
    Big 3: Squat= 320
    ........Bench= 275
    ........Deadlift= 350ish?
    OL: .....Clean= 270 150%
    ...........Snatch= 200 111%

  13. #38
    Senior Member teenathlete3030's Avatar
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    What's a good mark to eventually shoot for in the clean & jerk, or snatch? I know some of the true Oly lifters in the 85kg class are cleaning over 200kg, but that's just insane strength and technique and good body proportions. I'm saying that for me if a 2.5x bodyweight squat is awesome, as with a 3x bw deadlift, what should I be looking at as a general percentage? I know that you can't get exact because of individual differences but I'm not really looking for the exact mark, just a good weight to shoot for.
    6'0" 180
    Vertical 29" Running= 37" 40= 4.70
    Big 3: Squat= 320
    ........Bench= 275
    ........Deadlift= 350ish?
    OL: .....Clean= 270 150%
    ...........Snatch= 200 111%

  14. #39
    Senior Member JHarris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teenathlete3030 View Post
    What's a good mark to eventually shoot for in the clean & jerk, or snatch? I know some of the true Oly lifters in the 85kg class are cleaning over 200kg, but that's just insane strength and technique and good body proportions. I'm saying that for me if a 2.5x bodyweight squat is awesome, as with a 3x bw deadlift, what should I be looking at as a general percentage? I know that you can't get exact because of individual differences but I'm not really looking for the exact mark, just a good weight to shoot for.
    This is a tough question to answer, as you rightfully pointed out. If you were to devote your time to Olympic lifting, obviously you'd be able to clean a higher percentage of your back squat. So let's assume for the moment that you were to really focus on OL'ing and worked your form out a great deal, caught the clean in a full front squat, etc. One rule of thumb is that you can't clean a weight before you can front squat it for a triple. This doesn't imply that you can clean anything you can front squat for a triple, but it's a start to get a feel for it.

    Amongst my team and some other guys I know, people tend to be able to clean and jerk something in the range of 60-70% of the back squat when training for OL'ing. However, keep in mind the following things:

    1. OL'ers squat ATG for the most part, so you have to be honest with yourself as to whether or not you are actually getting that depth.

    2. While OL'ers do squat a lot, its an auxillary lift and thus the main goal isn't in making the back squat go up.

    3. There are anomolies everywhere, but Pyrros Dimas c&j'ed 213kg, and its reported that his top back squat is something like 300kg. This seems to fall in the range. Then again, you can find videos of Shane Hammon backsquatting 1000lbs. However, Shane was a powerlifter who converted to OL'ing, and had some issues with flexibility especially in his upper body. (Taking nothing away from him - what an athlete that guy is!) I think the 60-70% probably is more accurate for non super heavy weight lifters, but that's just a guess.

    Honestly, if you could hit a 1.5x bw clean and jerk, that would be pretty damn impressive for a non-OL. If you are doing something near 2x, especially in heavier divisions, you are nationally competitive. (for the 94kg weight class, you have to c&j roughly 150kg to get to the American Open, one of 2 big national meets of the year. For the 85kg'ers, its roughly 140-ish kg) The lighter you are, the better percentage of your body weight you'd need to lift to be nationally competitive.

  15. #40
    Senior Member teenathlete3030's Avatar
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    Well, if my parallel backsquat is 270, and clean is 185, that's about 68%. Not bad, especially considering I didn't even catch the weight in the clean even close to parallel it seemed. There's a lot of depth I have yet to unleash. I have a feeling I could have squatted more than that 270 however too, so it's hard to say really.

    Pyrros is an animal. I saw a video of him but he had some issues with his wrist. Squatting 3.5x bw is incomprehensible to my mind.

    My next goal is to hit 195, because that would put me at the All-state level for the Bigger-Faster-Stronger program.


    One other question. My next training routine is 2 days a week, squat day one and deadlift day two. (plus upper body on the same days, all lifts 4 sets of 4. It's produced great results in the past for me). However, instead of using glute/ham etc. for auxilary lifts, I will do clean on day one and snatch on day two.

    4x4 is way too much volume. What do you suggest I do? 3 sets of 1 at 90%? 3 sets of 2 at 80-85%? I don't want to burn out my CNS by trying 100% every time, but I know OL use singles in the training vidoes I've seen.

    While I do want to get better at OL because I think it's more fun than normal lifting, my main reason for doing them is the athletic benefits. Heck, most OL have close to 40 inch verticals without any jump training. I know the more strength per pound of body weight, the better. I know the greater speed and rate of force development, the better. I know the greater plyometric ability, the better. OL hits most of these areas, maybe minus the plyos, although some stretching/reflexing has to be going on.
    Last edited by teenathlete3030; 03-29-2007 at 11:04 PM.
    6'0" 180
    Vertical 29" Running= 37" 40= 4.70
    Big 3: Squat= 320
    ........Bench= 275
    ........Deadlift= 350ish?
    OL: .....Clean= 270 150%
    ...........Snatch= 200 111%

  16. #41
    Senior Member JHarris's Avatar
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    However, instead of using glute/ham etc. for auxilary lifts, I will do clean on day one and snatch on day two.

    4x4 is way too much volume. What do you suggest I do? 3 sets of 1 at 90%? 3 sets of 2 at 80-85%? I don't want to burn out my CNS by trying 100% every time, but I know OL use singles in the training vidoes I've seen.
    I dont know what your entire program looks like and where your strengths and weaknesses are as a lifter, so Im not sure if subbing in Oly lifts for auxilaries is the best idea. But if you are going to do them like that, I would recommend doing them as the first exercise as they are extremely form depedent and explosive, as you well know.

    Yes, OL does use singles but not all the time. The videos are a bit misleading. You really shouldn't go over 5 reps on a set, but volume is useful for really focusing on form and explosion before attacking heavier weights. You should try to periodize your OL'ing a bit; a simple way would be a 5 week cycle: 1st week 3x5 @65%, 2nd 3x4 @ 70%, 3rd 3x3 @ 75%, 4th 3x2 @ 80%, 5th 3x1 @85%. Of course you would need a proper warmup for each. At the end of the 5 weeks, test a new max and the following 5 weeks work up to 90%. Keep in mind this is extremely simple but its just an idea of how you could do it. The volume at the lower percentages is important - that's where you hit form and get 'practice' at the lifts.

    While I do want to get better at OL because I think it's more fun than normal lifting, my main reason for doing them is the athletic benefits. Heck, most OL have close to 40 inch verticals without any jump training. I know the more strength per pound of body weight, the better. I know the greater speed and rate of force development, the better. I know the greater plyometric ability, the better. OL hits most of these areas, maybe minus the plyos, although some stretching/reflexing has to be going on.
    I think its more fun than normal lifting too though the 40inch vertical is a bit of a misnomer. (Though they most do have great verticals - Hammons was about 36 inches, I believe, which is incredible on someone over 300 lbs). It turns out that the better you are at cleaning/snatching, the better you utilize the stretch reflex in what's called the double knee bend. Essentially, once you've pulled the weight to just over your knees, you start to extend your hips and rebend your knees underneath the bar causing a stretch reflex in your quads. Its near impossible to teach. Athletes tend to develop it as they get better. Just remember when doing these lifts that the explosion really starts when the bar is just underneath the knees and not from the ground. People often make the mistake of ripping the bar off the ground.

    A 185 clean at your size is pretty good. I think your next big goal in the olympic lifts should be to snatch your body weight though you have a while before you hit that. Your parallel squat isn't as highly correlated with the olympic lifts as a full squat is. Those couple of extra inches in really putting your hamstrings on your calfs and hitting your full flexibility are a lot harder than just hitting parallel. Also, this flexibility is really important for OL'ing. Anyway, going down further recruits more of your glutes and hams - if you find yourself starting to get into OL'ing more, I'd recommend switching your squat to an Oly style squat. (A little more narrow stance, just outside of shoulder width, and going all the way down.)

  17. #42
    Senior Member teenathlete3030's Avatar
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    I do use a fairly narrow squat stance, although I could go a bit lower.

    So as far as the whole set up, this could work (plyos taken care of practicing high jump):

    Week 1:

    A: Clean 3x5 65%...Squat 4x5

    B: Snatch 3x5 65%...Deadlift 4x5

    W2:

    A: Clean 3x4 70%...Squat 4x5

    B: Snatch 3x4 70%...Deadlift 4x5

    W3:

    A: Clean 3x3 75%...Squat 4x4

    B: Snatch 3x3 75%...Deadlift 4x4

    W4:

    A: Clean 3x2 80%...Squat 4x4

    B: Snatch 3x2 80%...Deadlift 4x4

    W5:

    A: Clean 3x1 85%...Squat 4x4

    B: Snatch 3x1 85%...Deadlift 4x4

    Then after that, do the retest and switch to a 3 day per week style because usually a change in frequency and volume works good for alternating programs.
    6'0" 180
    Vertical 29" Running= 37" 40= 4.70
    Big 3: Squat= 320
    ........Bench= 275
    ........Deadlift= 350ish?
    OL: .....Clean= 270 150%
    ...........Snatch= 200 111%

  18. #43
    Senior Member teenathlete3030's Avatar
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    There was a post from another website that said those percentages would be too low to gain a lot of power from it, even though my form would be getting smoother. They recommended something along these lines:

    W1: 3x3 @ 80%
    W2: 3x3 @ 85%
    W3: 3x2 @ 90%
    W4: 3x2 @ 95%
    W5: 3x1 @ 100%

    After all, in those 5 weeks I would undoubtedly be getting stronger, so a 100% lift on week 5 should definitely be doable, and quite possibly a 'no problem' lift. The low percentage volume for form would come in by utilizing proper warm ups, and I would still be getting in a heavy workout along with the form.

    I will also be videotaping all OL sessions to spot errors in form and correct them asap.
    6'0" 180
    Vertical 29" Running= 37" 40= 4.70
    Big 3: Squat= 320
    ........Bench= 275
    ........Deadlift= 350ish?
    OL: .....Clean= 270 150%
    ...........Snatch= 200 111%

  19. #44
    Senior Member teenathlete3030's Avatar
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    I'm also going to drop the deadlifts and just put the main focus on the OL day 2. To suppliment the lift I'll add in either glute/ham or a squat variation.
    6'0" 180
    Vertical 29" Running= 37" 40= 4.70
    Big 3: Squat= 320
    ........Bench= 275
    ........Deadlift= 350ish?
    OL: .....Clean= 270 150%
    ...........Snatch= 200 111%

  20. #45
    Senior Member teenathlete3030's Avatar
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    I taped myself doing 3 sets of 3 with 150lb (80%). As soon as I get a firewire cable I can post it up.
    6'0" 180
    Vertical 29" Running= 37" 40= 4.70
    Big 3: Squat= 320
    ........Bench= 275
    ........Deadlift= 350ish?
    OL: .....Clean= 270 150%
    ...........Snatch= 200 111%

  21. #46
    Senior Member vrizzle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHarris View Post
    Any olympic lifter that is actually in the Olympics is freakily strong for whatever their size is. Yes, they are extremely fast in getting back underneath the bar, but they all still all have very large numbers in the full olympic style squat (usually at or better than 3x their bodyweight, depending on their weight class.)

    I think what you are referring to here are the lifters who seem to just get the weight high enough to slip under the bar versus lifters who get a more clear pop before catching it a bit higher and riding it down. The former are still very explosive on the up portion of the movement and since explosiveness is just force being applied to the bar and force = mass x accel, they must be very strong to be able to generate the high amount of accel on an already heavy mass. 85kg lifters - which is roughly 187lbs, at the olympic level, are doing 200kg (440lbs) c&js. Its not often you see someone deadlifting 440 and doing it fast enough to make the bar jump, let alone someone under 200 lbs doing it.

    Jay
    Try snatching
    snatch: 185
    Bench: 245
    Clean: 245
    Jerk: 275x2
    C+J: 245
    TANDEM C+J: 442
    Weight:148.5
    Need to weigh: 62kg
    Body fat: 6.3%
    Goal for State: 255 Bench, 260 C+J. and 205 snatch for OLY

  22. #47
    Senior Member JHarris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vrizzle View Post
    Try snatching
    Im not sure I follow what you are saying here.

    Jay

  23. #48
    Senior Member vrizzle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHarris View Post
    Im not sure I follow what you are saying here.

    Jay
    correction: I thought it was an 85 that snatched 200 after regulation, but it was either a 94 or 105. You are right, I am wrong. Dimas did, I think, 202.5 and he's a legend. So yea, a 200 C+J at 85kg is an olympic level lift.
    snatch: 185
    Bench: 245
    Clean: 245
    Jerk: 275x2
    C+J: 245
    TANDEM C+J: 442
    Weight:148.5
    Need to weigh: 62kg
    Body fat: 6.3%
    Goal for State: 255 Bench, 260 C+J. and 205 snatch for OLY

  24. #49
    Senior Member vrizzle's Avatar
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    btw do you do OLY weightlifting competitively, Nationals, Juniors (when you were young enough), American Open?
    snatch: 185
    Bench: 245
    Clean: 245
    Jerk: 275x2
    C+J: 245
    TANDEM C+J: 442
    Weight:148.5
    Need to weigh: 62kg
    Body fat: 6.3%
    Goal for State: 255 Bench, 260 C+J. and 205 snatch for OLY

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHarris View Post
    Just remember when doing these lifts that the explosion really starts when the bar is just underneath the knees and not from the ground. People often make the mistake of ripping the bar off the ground.
    How is it supposed to be done? I thought the explosion was from the ground, but it's more of a hang clean?

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