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Thread: Class today

  1. #1
    Is cutting down to 9% Jordanbcool's Avatar
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    Class today

    I was in my criminology class today. Its usually a joke class but I like it. We SHOULD be doing actual work. There are plenty of things to study...it is law/justice. Instead my teacher usually goes WAY off topic and ends up going on and on about it for an entire hour. The discussions are good/valuable but most of the time they are only remotely connected to criminology. Like today, we talked about the possibility of world war three.

    Anyways. Also today he made us watch a 4 minute video of an iraq documentary (which got us started on the world war three thing). The video is done by some iraq terrorists or insurgents. Our teacher told us beforehand that if we had weak stomachs we should leave the room. No one left in our entire class, including me. I have a weak stomach when it comes to blood/violence but as long as its not senseless torture then I'm ok. The first part of the video showed about 18 iraq men. Thankfully no women/children. They all were forced to tell their names and where they are from etc. etc.

    Then immediately the tape goes to a single man. He is bound but not blind folded or gagged. Seconds later another iraq man comes out with a long jagged knife, grabs the man hair and proceeds to cut his throat while he is still screaming. Since the knife is not big enough the beheading takes a good 2 minutes. The entire time the poor man is choking on his own blood, his eyes are falling out and he is trying to scream while his voice box is being cut.

    If anyone has ever seen those *stop the violence* baby seal things. That's exactly what they did to this man. Not only did they kill him, but they went out of their way to ensure that he was alive the entire time. I'm getting sick just thinking about it. I'll be 20 in about a month and I've heard of such things but I never thought people actually did it. I thought they'd atleast have the decency to kill someone before they mutilated them, but these people had absolutely no regard for anything. They had no morals, no restraint or hesitation.

    I was trying to think of the motivation behind something like that but I cannot find any. Even if someone where to rape and violently murder my entire family and extended family.....I would never think/do anything like that. I wouldn't consider myself a baby, or a pussy but I just can't figure out how another human could stand there and do that to a person that's never done anything to them. Not only that but to kill them in the worst possible way? I would rather be set on fire then have to go through that (as you can imagine his neck was hard to cut through and he was alive through most of that).

    I know there are bad people. People do bad things. But even a rapist or murderer is better then those people....I just don't know how you could ever muster that kind of self control in killing someone like that. I seriously almost started crying towards the end. Right before he dies the man tries to call out something but the guy cutting him starts laughing and does it harder.

    I dunno. I feel better saying something about it. More people should know that this **** goes on sometimes.
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  2. #2
    Banned bjohnso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordanbcool View Post
    I'll be 20 in about a month and I've heard of such things but I never thought people actually did it. I thought they'd atleast have the decency to kill someone before they mutilated them, but these people had absolutely no regard for anything.
    Where have you been for the last 3 or 4 years?


    Quote Originally Posted by Jordanbcool View Post
    I dunno. I feel better saying something about it. More people should know that this **** goes on sometimes.
    Actually, this **** happens regularlyon in most of the world. Unfortunately, no one cares enough to do anything about it. Human life is cheap there.

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    I saw these videos last year of some of the things saddam Hussein used to have done to people. Like having there arms tied behind there back and thrown off 2 and 3 story buildings. disgusting stuff.
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  4. #4
    Is cutting down to 9% Jordanbcool's Avatar
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    But what would compel someone to do that? They hate these people but not personally. And I hate many people but wouldn't want anything like that to happen to even my worst enemy.
    Last edited by Jordanbcool; 03-29-2007 at 05:55 PM.
    Getting back in the groove
    "I'll tell you a secret. Something they don't teach you in your temple. The Gods envy us. They envy us because we're mortal, because any moment might be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we're doomed. You will never be lovelier than you are now. We will never be here again." - Achilles, (Troy 2004)
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  5. #5
    Senior Member Jorge Sanchez's Avatar
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    It's easy to do if you perceive your enemy as sub-human. It has to do with the construction of identity.
    Last edited by Jorge Sanchez; 03-29-2007 at 05:59 PM.
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  6. #6
    Who is John Galt? CrazyK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordanbcool View Post
    But what would compel someone to do that? They hate these people but not personally. And I hate many people but wouldn't want anything like that to happen to even my worst enemy.
    Fear. If you instill fear in the masses you can control them. The United States does the same thing but instead of inciting fear through mass murders and torture, they install it through the media.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Sidior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordanbcool View Post
    But what would compel someone to do that? They hate these people but not personally. And I hate many people but wouldn't want anything like that to happen to even my worst enemy.
    religion or more specifically blind faith without logic
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  8. #8
    Who is John Galt? CrazyK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidior View Post
    religion or more specifically blind faith without logic
    It's not religion or blind faith. It's sick people doing sick things, regardless of how they rationalize it to themselves.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Jorge Sanchez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyK View Post
    It's not religion or blind faith. It's sick people doing sick things, regardless of how they rationalize it to themselves.
    It's not sick people. I doubt that you (or most anyone else on this board) would be unwilling to do something like that if you were in their situation. That doesn't make it right, but people are not born with some kind of innate moral compass. Propoganda and socialization go a long way in determining our behaviour, whether you like it or not.
    Last edited by Jorge Sanchez; 03-29-2007 at 06:25 PM.
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    On the news today some dude announced that the average price of a slave is now under 100$.

    Same dude explained that now instead of taking care of their slaves who are sick, slave owners will just "dispose" of them since it is cheaper to buy a new one.

  11. #11
    Who is John Galt? CrazyK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge Sanchez View Post
    It's not sick people. I doubt that you (or most anyone else on this board) would be unwilling to do something like that if you were in their situation. That doesn't make it right, but people are not born with some kind of innate moral compass. Propoganda and socialization go a long way in determining our behaviour, whether you like it or not.
    That doesn't mean it's the religion that pushed them over the edge. I don't recall Islamic teachings telling one that it is ok to slowly torture and behead people (Sharia law actually promotes beheading as a capitol punishment, but should be done as quickly and humanely as possible). I also don't recall Catholicism promoting Pedaphilia, but sick followers of that faith partake in it. Does it mean it's the religion? Or sick people?

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    In the US, mormons have done some pretty crazy stuff as well.

    Poverty + Fundamentalism = Bad News Bears

  13. #13
    Senior Member Jorge Sanchez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyK View Post
    That doesn't mean it's the religion that pushed them over the edge. I don't recall Islamic teachings telling one that it is ok to slowly torture and behead people (Sharia law actually promotes beheading as a capitol punishment, but should be done as quickly and humanely as possible). I also don't recall Catholicism promoting Pedaphilia, but sick followers of that faith partake in it. Does it mean it's the religion? Or sick people?
    When did I ever say it was religion? Yes there are sick people in the world, but boiling every inhumane act down to 'sick people' fundamentally misunderstands the issue.

    You'd be surprised what you are capable of under the right (or wrong) circumstances.
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  14. #14
    Is cutting down to 9% Jordanbcool's Avatar
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    Only a small percentage actually do it for religious purposes. Those are the "leaders" who usually don't get their own hands dirty with blood. I'm still wondering what is the motivation for the lesser terrorist to carry out such things.

    I'm also taking psychology and we are on a chapter about motivation. I may bring this up Tuesday in my next class.
    Getting back in the groove
    "I'll tell you a secret. Something they don't teach you in your temple. The Gods envy us. They envy us because we're mortal, because any moment might be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we're doomed. You will never be lovelier than you are now. We will never be here again." - Achilles, (Troy 2004)
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  15. #15
    Is cutting down to 9% Jordanbcool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyK View Post
    That doesn't mean it's the religion that pushed them over the edge. I don't recall Islamic teachings telling one that it is ok to slowly torture and behead people (Sharia law actually promotes beheading as a capitol punishment, but should be done as quickly and humanely as possible). I also don't recall Catholicism promoting Pedaphilia, but sick followers of that faith partake in it. Does it mean it's the religion? Or sick people?
    People only hide behind the so called religion to gain other followers or to attempt to justify what they are doing.

    Plus its easier to tell someone if they do something they will get rewards. Can you see someone blowing themselves up if they didn't think they were going to heaven?
    Getting back in the groove
    "I'll tell you a secret. Something they don't teach you in your temple. The Gods envy us. They envy us because we're mortal, because any moment might be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we're doomed. You will never be lovelier than you are now. We will never be here again." - Achilles, (Troy 2004)
    Stats
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  16. #16
    Is cutting down to 9% Jordanbcool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jorge Sanchez View Post
    It's easy to do if you perceive your enemy as sub-human. It has to do with the construction of identity.
    I disagree.

    I've helped small animals, insects and even plants. It sounds stupid, but I personally believe that all life is unique and just as worthy of existence as anything else. I'm not saying I value a plant's life equally but I'm just saying that these people don't even hold value for even the highest of life forms. Which is us.

    And its one thing to shot someone from a distance or put someone in a car and run it off a bridge. These guys had enough control to look the man in the eyes and laugh at him while he choked on his own blood. It wasn't quick, honorable or worthy of anything. If I had to kill someone in war or in my own defense I would do it quick. Whats the point of making them suffer like that? If anything it brings people AGAINST their own cause..
    Last edited by Jordanbcool; 03-29-2007 at 07:01 PM.
    Getting back in the groove
    "I'll tell you a secret. Something they don't teach you in your temple. The Gods envy us. They envy us because we're mortal, because any moment might be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we're doomed. You will never be lovelier than you are now. We will never be here again." - Achilles, (Troy 2004)
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  17. #17
    Senior Member BilltheButcher's Avatar
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    Ya, this has been going on since the beginning of time. But since the media hates this war and this president and has their own agenda, they do not blast this stuff all over the news b/c they know it will enrage the US public and more will back the efforts to get rid of these fundamentalists. Personally, I have changed my views on the war, I think its a no win situation and we should cut our losses, but i think in our lifetime these whackos are going to come to the US and lop a US citizens head off.
    Never shall innocent blood be shed, yet the blood of the wicked shall flow like a river. The Three shall spread their blackened wings and be the vengeful striking hammer of God.

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    The thing is there are people who actually believe there is a man up in the sky commanding them to go and kill people.

    Read Jon Krakauer "Under the Banner of Heaven" for a better understanding of religious fanatacism. The mormon terrorists he talks about that live in Utah are pretty scary, maybe even scarier than the guys in Iraq.

  19. #19
    T.J.W. nhlfan's Avatar
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    humans are very much a "clean slate" at birth. your socialization process has been very different than of the people you saw in the video. just remember that american troops commit atrocities too, it's just that the american troops often, but not always, have the luxury of pressing a button from a jet fighter a mile above their target instead of staring into their victim's eyes as they drain the life out of them.
    Last edited by nhlfan; 03-29-2007 at 07:33 PM.
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  20. #20
    Senior Member Jorge Sanchez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordanbcool View Post
    I disagree.

    I've helped small animals, insects and even plants. It sounds stupid, but I personally believe that all life is unique and just as worthy of existence as anything else. I'm not saying I value a plant's life equally but I'm just saying that these people don't even hold value for even the highest of life forms. Which is us.

    And its one thing to shot someone from a distance or put someone in a car and run it off a bridge. These guys had enough control to look the man in the eyes and laugh at him while he choked on his own blood. It wasn't quick, honorable or worthy of anything. If I had to kill someone in war or in my own defense I would do it quick. Whats the point of making them suffer like that? If anything it brings people AGAINST their own cause..
    It's not simply that they perceive them as sub-human, but as their enemy. To go along with your animal, insect, and plant analogy, I bet you've killed a fly, you've probably plucked a weed or maybe even a beautiful flower, and I'm sure you've been in a car that's hit a furry little squirrel and you didn't even bat your eyes.

    Their enemies are constructed in such a way as to be unworthy of the respect you would afford a 'human.' They treat them that way because they hate them with every fibre of their being.

    But the process goes both ways. That documentary presented 'them' as uncivilized barbarians unworthy of respect and human dignity. And thus the differences between 'us' and 'them' grow in a vicious cycle of hate and violence.

    I'm not saying that you or I would do that. But I don't think either of us are incapable of it given the right circumstances. Just some food for thought. It never hurts to think critically about things that elicit such an emotional response.
    Last edited by Jorge Sanchez; 03-29-2007 at 07:48 PM.
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  21. #21
    Is cutting down to 9% Jordanbcool's Avatar
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    But I've never tormented the fly or set it on fire or laughed at it as it screamed in agony while trying to reason with me.

    Also in war there are certain standards that even hardened warriors adhere too. These people had none of those.

    Yea maybe I would tie someone up and smack them around a bit. Maybe call them names or belittle them. Maybe even kick or push them. But to go so far as to outright torment them in the most gruesome way is something I don't think I'd ever be able to do. I'd go so far as to say I'd rather die trying to escape then kill someone like that, even if I was offered freedom.
    Last edited by Jordanbcool; 03-29-2007 at 08:09 PM.
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    "I'll tell you a secret. Something they don't teach you in your temple. The Gods envy us. They envy us because we're mortal, because any moment might be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we're doomed. You will never be lovelier than you are now. We will never be here again." - Achilles, (Troy 2004)
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    Consider that these people have seen family members/close friends killed by the same "group" of people they tortured.

    Kind of reminds me of what the US did at Abu 'Grhaib

  23. #23
    T.J.W. nhlfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bupp View Post
    C
    Kind of reminds me of what the US did at Abu 'Grhaib
    and still does at guantanamo bay
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  24. #24
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    What went on in those two U.S prison camps above can not be compared to what went on in that video. At least the U.S punished the guards who did this. And none of the prisoners were killed slowly so that they suffocated on their own blood.

  25. #25
    天龙 McIrish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bupp View Post
    The thing is there are people who actually believe there is a man up in the sky commanding them to go and kill people.

    Read Jon Krakauer "Under the Banner of Heaven" for a better understanding of religious fanatacism. The mormon terrorists he talks about that live in Utah are pretty scary, maybe even scarier than the guys in Iraq.
    Actually, just to play devil's advocate, I have read Krakauer's "Under the Banner of Heaven" and I think the individual in question is mentally unstable entirely independently of his religion. His was not a case of religious fanatacism, it was purely psychotic delusions that he latched on to religion.

    EDIT: Also, after having spent considerable time in Utah, I think the LDS church gets a very bad rap from fanatical fringe loonies like that guy (and the splinter RLDS church in southern Utah). Most Mormons (like most Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Catholics, etc.) are good people - of course, every religion has a few bad eggs, ya know? I don't think it's fair to label those guys "Mormon terrorists" since their affiliation to LDS doctrine was superficial at best. Like I said, they were murderers, not fanatical Mormon murderers. Just my $0.02.
    Last edited by McIrish; 03-29-2007 at 10:46 PM.
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