The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

It’s no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
    Senior Member starks713's Avatar
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    Lateral raise strength.......

    My strength on lateral raises is pathetic. With dumbell military press I have no problem with the 95's my bench is 335 but on lateral raises 35's are very heavy to me. The main reason I care about this is due to the fact that heavy overhead presses do not add the width to my shoulders that I would like. I usually do them after a DB or BB press but I have tried putting them first, not much success either way. Any ideas?

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  3. #2
    Getting un-streamlined Progress's Avatar
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    Why does it matter how much weight you're doing on lateral raises if it's still a workout for you at that weight? Have you tried working with different set/rep schemes?

  4. #3
    Hessunit hessunit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Progress View Post
    Why does it matter how much weight you're doing on lateral raises if it's still a workout for you at that weight? Have you tried working with different set/rep schemes?
    Good call...definitely agree with this. Keep doing them and go slow on the negative, it will come.
    Gettin Large

  5. #4
    Team Chesticles! Unholy's Avatar
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    I have to agree. If the weight feels heavy then your obviously getting a good workout with it. Sometimes poundage isn't everything. I do Lateral Raises with 25's and 30'sand they feel heavy as hell.
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  6. #5
    Up On the Roof! theJamAbides's Avatar
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    20's are almost too much for me right now.

    You have to look at the leverage you are putting on that shoulder. Since gravity goes up and down, with DB Presses you are lifting the 95 pounds.

    Say you are lifting 25 pounders with the lateral raise, your arm is 30 inches long, and your shoulder muscle is attached at roughly 2 inches into your arm.

    The equation would be: L / l = R / E
    Where: L = length of effort arm, l = length of resistance arm, R = resistance weight or force, and, E= effort force.

    So: 2 inches / 28 inches = 25 pounds / E

    E is our unknown, so we cross multiply to get 2E = 700 and then simplifiy to get E = 350 pounds.

    Sounds ******ed, but your muscle is doing 350 pounds of work to lift 25 pounds. Your mileage may vary based on arm length.

    Additional information:

    Your arm is a 3rd class lever, here's a definition and other examples:

    Third class lever


    It is to be noted that for this class of levers, the input effort is higher than the output load, which is different from the first-class and second-class levers. However, also notice that the input effort moves through a shorter distance than the load. Thus it still has its uses in making certain tasks easier to do.

    Examples:

    1. Human Arm
    2. Tweezers
    3. Slings, trebuchets, and fishing rods (also spoons, when used for flinging food. This uses your index finger as the fulcrum, your thumb as the effort, and the load is the food.)
    4. Any number of tools, such as a hoe or scythe
    5. The main body of a pair of nail clippers, in which the handle exerts the incoming force
    6. Shovel
    7. Broom
    8. Staple Remover
    9. Hockey Stick
    10. The Human Mandible
    11. Boat Paddle
    12. Baseball bat
    theJamAbides
    5'11" - 200 lbs.
    Jam's Journal

    BP - 190x5
    DL - 250x5
    SQ - 230x5
    C**k Pushups - 1x1 (Cuz that's all you need baby!)

  7. #6
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    Try doing them 1 arm at a time.

  8. #7
    Senior Member PoutineEh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theJamAbides View Post
    20's are almost too much for me right now.

    You have to look at the leverage you are putting on that shoulder. Since gravity goes up and down, with DB Presses you are lifting the 95 pounds.

    Say you are lifting 25 pounders with the lateral raise, your arm is 30 inches long, and your shoulder muscle is attached at roughly 2 inches into your arm.

    The equation would be: L / l = R / E
    Where: L = length of effort arm, l = length of resistance arm, R = resistance weight or force, and, E= effort force.

    So: 2 inches / 28 inches = 25 pounds / E

    E is our unknown, so we cross multiply to get 2E = 700 and then simplifiy to get E = 350 pounds.

    Sounds ******ed, but your muscle is doing 350 pounds of work to lift 25 pounds. Your mileage may vary based on arm length.

    Additional information:

    Your arm is a 3rd class lever, here's a definition and other examples:

    Third class lever


    It is to be noted that for this class of levers, the input effort is higher than the output load, which is different from the first-class and second-class levers. However, also notice that the input effort moves through a shorter distance than the load. Thus it still has its uses in making certain tasks easier to do.

    Examples:

    1. Human Arm
    2. Tweezers
    3. Slings, trebuchets, and fishing rods (also spoons, when used for flinging food. This uses your index finger as the fulcrum, your thumb as the effort, and the load is the food.)
    4. Any number of tools, such as a hoe or scythe
    5. The main body of a pair of nail clippers, in which the handle exerts the incoming force
    6. Shovel
    7. Broom
    8. Staple Remover
    9. Hockey Stick
    10. The Human Mandible
    11. Boat Paddle
    12. Baseball bat

    lol wow, very thorough. plus a lateral raise will subject the shoulder to a lot of torque, while a press is a lot less since its line of action intersects the shoulder.

  9. #8
    Up On the Roof! theJamAbides's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoutineEh View Post
    lol wow, very thorough. plus a lateral raise will subject the shoulder to a lot of torque, while a press is a lot less since its line of action intersects the shoulder.
    Actually, I thought I was quite a weakling when 20's were tough... so I had to find out why. Wikipedia to the rescue!
    theJamAbides
    5'11" - 200 lbs.
    Jam's Journal

    BP - 190x5
    DL - 250x5
    SQ - 230x5
    C**k Pushups - 1x1 (Cuz that's all you need baby!)

  10. #9
    Senior Member PoutineEh's Avatar
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    yeah, lateral raises are infinitely tougher than a press imo.
    when i start including them in my new routine for the summer, im not going to try and be a hard-ass and lift heavy weights w/ a lateral raise. im going to swallow my ego and lift what i can keep good form w/, even if it is with lil sissy weights
    Last edited by PoutineEh; 03-28-2007 at 07:17 PM.

  11. #10
    Senior Member starks713's Avatar
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    Some good info

    Thanks for all the replies. The main reason I'm concerned with poundage is due to the fact that I have friends who have the same bench and shoulder press strength yet they can do lateral raises with good form one arm at a time with 65's or heavier and I'm barely doing half that which I thought was strange.

  12. #11
    Senior Member Nate's Avatar
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    i doubt they are raising 65's with good form

    i mean your medial delt is about the size of your thumb...

  13. #12
    Up On the Roof! theJamAbides's Avatar
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    Hmmm that also seems kind of high... possible, but very very very high. Apply the formula to see what kind of force they need to exert.
    theJamAbides
    5'11" - 200 lbs.
    Jam's Journal

    BP - 190x5
    DL - 250x5
    SQ - 230x5
    C**k Pushups - 1x1 (Cuz that's all you need baby!)

  14. #13
    Banned bjohnso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starks713 View Post
    Thanks for all the replies. The main reason I'm concerned with poundage is due to the fact that I have friends who have the same bench and shoulder press strength yet they can do lateral raises with good form one arm at a time with 65's or heavier and I'm barely doing half that which I thought was strange.
    First of all, 35s are pretty heavy for doing lateral raises, that's not a small weight. Second, I'd have to see a video to believe anyone but Ron Coleman can do 65s with anything resembling good form.

  15. #14
    ANVIL POWER Detard's Avatar
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    In short. Your muscles that are being used during that motion are weak. Deal with it and keep progressing at your own speed. Dont try to lift what other people are or you'll end up hurting yourself.
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  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by starks713 View Post
    The main reason I care about this is due to the fact that heavy overhead presses do not add the width to my shoulders that I would like.
    This is not true. I bet you're confusing "work" with "burn". Lat raises usually burn the sides of your delts more than presses. But if you want big shoulders, then heavy military presses (with good form) will do it.

    I personally feel that one of the biggest time wasters for people in the gym are those that do a myriad of shoulder exercises. (Not saying you're one of them necessarily). Front raises, side raises, bent over raises, etc.....

    I say throw'em all away. Heavy military presses, dumbell and/or barbell is what you want to do.

    Then go eat and get some sleep.

  17. #16
    Senior Member Nate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Joshua View Post
    This is not true. I bet you're confusing "work" with "burn". Lat raises usually burn the sides of your delts more than presses. But if you want big shoulders, then heavy military presses (with good form) will do it.

    I personally feel that one of the biggest time wasters for people in the gym are those that do a myriad of shoulder exercises. (Not saying you're one of them necessarily). Front raises, side raises, bent over raises, etc.....

    I say throw'em all away. Heavy military presses, dumbell and/or barbell is what you want to do.

    Then go eat and get some sleep.
    but what about when you want to hit your medial and posterior delts?
    your anterior delts get hit pretty hard with flat and incline bench, the only thing resembling a military press i do are arnies

  18. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nate View Post
    but what about when you want to hit your medial and posterior delts?
    your anterior delts get hit pretty hard with flat and incline bench, the only thing resembling a military press i do are arnies
    Militaries work your entire shoulder. Heavy rowing will also hit your posterior delts.

  19. #18
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    The lateral (if done slowly, without throwing the weight up) is one of those excercises that no-one can do with huge weight. Take these guys who can bench 400+ lbs, I doubt anyone can do slow lateral raises with two 100 lbs dumbells.
    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't see how this is possible.

  20. #19
    Senior Member HeavyBomber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starks713 View Post
    Thanks for all the replies. The main reason I'm concerned with poundage is due to the fact that I have friends who have the same bench and shoulder press strength yet they can do lateral raises with good form one arm at a time with 65's or heavier and I'm barely doing half that which I thought was strange.
    I don't know about your friends man but my shoulders are descent and I don't go much over 35's, 40's at the most.
    Last edited by HeavyBomber; 03-30-2007 at 07:21 PM.

  21. #20
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    I can only do 25 in each arm when I use strict form. I rather make sure my forms right though. I don't want any damage or stress on my shoulder.

  22. #21
    Never enough. MeHoW's Avatar
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    I do 35's for sets of 7-9. It's a hard exercise, especially if you just started. You seem pretty strong overall so you should progress pretty quickly.

    Make sure you've got the form down though cause its easy to cheat on them.

    I usually do mine on arm at a time, leaning to the side holding on to something with the other arm and lift as high as it's possible.
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    Bench:240-250, somewhere in that area.
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    Goal: Lift more, Be Bigger and look Better.

  23. #22
    Wannabebig New Member
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    Side raises are one of thoses exercises that no one can get a good weight out of. I've been on 25's for a while tooand I just recently started doing cable side raises instead. The burn is crazy! Jay Cutler uses them almost exclusively, the weight is alot more constant. When you rhink about it, it's a much more efficient way to do this exercise becaue the ROM has a peculiar trajectory compared to the groud. using the cable instead of free weights eliminates the gravity factor and makes for a much more constant resistance.

  24. #23
    Senior Member Nate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Joshua View Post
    Militaries work your entire shoulder.
    Hmm i am very skeptical about this...

    can any one confirm or deny this?


    EDIT:

    To make my question more specific, yes i realize that the medial delt is recruited on the military press, but is the work done on them enough to eliminate any kind or lateral raise?
    Last edited by Nate; 04-03-2007 at 10:14 PM.

  25. #24
    Banned Slim Schaedle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrpopenfresh View Post
    Side raises are one of thoses exercises that no one can get a good weight out of.
    I would say my 50lbs/side is good weight, but on second thought...yeah, you are most likely correct with your gross generalization.

  26. #25
    Banned Slim Schaedle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Joshua View Post
    This is not true.
    So when I stop doing lat raise and bent lat raise, and my development decreases, it's just all in my head, right?

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