The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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  1. #1
    Who me? Chubrock's Avatar
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    Slim, Borris, Gal, Little Help Please

    Buddy of mine is a ExPhys Major and believes that through his 3yrs of school he has gained all the knowledge in the universe. He has recently gone on a binge about how Pre Workout Meals can be disadvantageous to a bodybuilder and that eating 2hrs before a meal can actually hurt the results one could see. I asked him for some type of proof and this is what he sent me:

    http://www.discountanabolics.com/for...ontrol+respond


    Any of ya'll care to help me sort through this crap so I can try to reason with him a bit.

    Fuck, fight, or hold the light.

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  3. #2
    Cardio bunny Alex.V's Avatar
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    That post makes me slightly ill.
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
    "Alex is all knowing and perfect"-----Jane (loosely paraphrased)
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  4. #3
    Just watch me ... Built's Avatar
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    I cited stuff about this a while back.

    Here are the references you can read:
    22. The Top 10 Post Workout Nutrition Myths, Dave Barr, http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=659666

    23. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Aug;281(2):E197-206. Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise. Tipton KD, Rasmussen BB, Miller SL, Wolf SE, Owens-Stovall SK, Petrini BE, Wolfe RR. Department of Surgery, University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, Texas 77550, USA. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract


    Good luck getting him to listen ...

  5. #4
    Risk10k Clifford Gillmore's Avatar
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    I read everything, and I just got a blood nose.










    <- Simple.

  6. #5
    DeaTH BeFoRe WeaKNeSs sCaRz*Of*PaiN's Avatar
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    Are you serious?

    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
    "The only easy day was yesterday."

  7. #6
    Who me? Chubrock's Avatar
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    Haha trust me guys (and gals), it makes my eyes bleed too. I just try to reason with this kid, but he thinks he's grabbed the world by the tail so to speak. I may just hit him with a plate.

    Fuck, fight, or hold the light.

  8. #7
    Cardio bunny Alex.V's Avatar
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    The thing about that article is that it's just bad science. The facts are sound, but the conclusions are just off base. There's no other way to put it. It's just... intellectually bankrupt.
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
    "Alex is all knowing and perfect"-----Jane (loosely paraphrased)
    -515/745/700 bench/deadlift/squat
    Current mile time: 4:23
    Marathons: 3
    Century races: 3
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  9. #8
    shot a man in reno Mik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belial View Post
    It's just... intellectually bankrupt.
    That is beautiful!

  10. #9
    DeaTH BeFoRe WeaKNeSs sCaRz*Of*PaiN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belial View Post
    The thing about that article is that it's just bad science. The facts are sound, but the conclusions are just off base. There's no other way to put it. It's just... intellectually bankrupt.
    I'll have to use that one sometime.
    "The only easy day was yesterday."

  11. #10
    Who me? Chubrock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belial View Post
    The thing about that article is that it's just bad science. The facts are sound, but the conclusions are just off base. There's no other way to put it. It's just... intellectually bankrupt.


    Belial, if you don't mind, would you mind pointing out a couple of examples of what you're referring to? I'll be honest, a lot of all that makes about as much sense to me as German. Ask me how to put together a Balance Sheet or Statement of Cash Flows and I'm good, but this, this is a different story entirely.

    Fuck, fight, or hold the light.

  12. #11
    天龙 McIrish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belial View Post
    It's just... intellectually bankrupt.
    Alright, I gotta ask... have you read the book "The Phantom Tollbooth"? I read it when I was about 8-10 (somewhere in there) and one line has stuck with me for the past 15-odd years.

    If memory serves, the Humbug directs the following at the Spelling Bee : "A slavish concern for the spelling of words is the sign of a bankrupt intellect."

    I just had to ask if someone was (gasp) making an allusion to one of my favorite childhood reads...
    25 years old, 5'10''

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  13. #12
    C.S.C.S. ddegroff's Avatar
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    ExPhys Major
    I'm in the same major, and I find that link you posted somewhat off.

    I had a meeting yesterday about Cortisol (perfect timing). I don't think you can limit the reasoning of a preworkout meal to just effect Cortisol. I don't have any links for you, tho.
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  14. #13
    Banned IHaveToCrushYou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubrock View Post
    Ask me how to put together a Balance Sheet or Statement of Cash Flows and I'm good, but this, this is a different story entirely.
    Love that accounting mumbo jumbo!

  15. #14
    Who me? Chubrock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IHaveToCrushYou View Post
    Love that accounting mumbo jumbo!
    More like a love/hate relationship. I tend to pick up on it pretty easily, and don't mind doing it. I've always been good with numbers too, so that helps.


    This stuff however, destroys my brain. I have a very limited knowledge on the inner workings of the human body, so I was hoping some of our more knowledgable members could help me break this down.

    Fuck, fight, or hold the light.

  16. #15
    Cardio bunny Alex.V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddegroff View Post
    I'm in the same major, and I find that link you posted somewhat off.

    I had a meeting yesterday about Cortisol (perfect timing). I don't think you can limit the reasoning of a preworkout meal to just effect Cortisol. I don't have any links for you, tho.

    Exactly what he said.

    This is the fundamental flaw in a lot of supplement research, not to mention the majority of crap articles out there on the internet (like the one referenced). If the human body was a grouping of isolated systems, you could, say, focus a drug on a single mechanism and expect it to work. Same applies to supplements. Look at Sesamin, for instance (I believe this is the one. I may be thinking about another compound here, but just bear with me). This is a compound that inhibits the action of an enzyme responsible for fat formation (essentially. I think the enzyme it inhibits is one responsible for triglyceride formation, not the deposit of lipids in adipose cells). So one would think that inhibiting this enzyme will slow fat formation.

    However, in order for this to work, you're making several assumptions:

    1) This enzyme's activity is the rate limiting step in fat formation. Any complex enzymatic pathway is a series of enzyme actions, and one of them is always the slowest. Think assembly line for cars. Pretend every single step is done by machines. One machine welds the frame, one machine, welds on the doors, another inserts windshields, etc. However, say that inserting the engine takes the longest (probable), and that the crankshaft needs to be linked to the transmission by a human. This would likely be the rate limiting step. So if you decreased the number of humans on the line, the entire assembly line would slow down. However, say you decreased the speed of the machines welding on the door handles. Yes, this is an essential step in car creation, but certainly not the slowest. In fact, the machine could do its work far faster, but at the end of the day that would be pointless, because people can only assemble drivetrains so quickly. So slowing this machine down on an absolute level, or even taking away half of them, wouldn't do much at all. They're running at a reduced speed ANYWAY, and if you took some away and slowed the others down, they could STILL run fast enough to overwhelm the poor guy with a heavy torque wrench and a bunch of smashed thumbs.

    This long winded example is basically my way of pointing out that identifying part of a system, and identifying a way to either help or hurt that one part, can have absolutely zero effect on the whole.

    2) The body won't find a way to compensate. As soon as you slow down the action of one enzyme, or inhibit one pathway, another one picks up the slack. The body is wonderful at maintaining the status quo. There are literally hundreds of systems in the body that, at least in part, work together just to regulate temperature.

    3) The lab work translates into humans. Theories tested in the lab rarely become practical OTC supplements. An isolated compound, just because it's effective when injected into rats, may do jack **** when put in pill form and sold OTC at a dose 1/100th of that tested.


    Anyway. That concludes my rant. Hopefully it explains a little of my general skepticism.

    In this PARTICULAR case, a similar assumption is being made with cortisol. A few actions of the hormone are isolated, and the author goes out of his way to detail these actions and discuss how their effects could be moderated, and even used in ways that are beneficial. However, he fails to adequately prove that, even IF all his arguments are true, the potential benefits of not eating pre-workout outweigh the benefits of simply having ample glucose in your body.

    In this case, the author is basically grasping at straws trying to generate something original. Unfortunately for most of these guys, the majority of good advice and good training is common sense, so it's impossible to maintain any aura of mystique as any kind of guru. (Note, this is why "steroid gurus" often give stupid advice that has no scientific backing... simply saying "Test is best, and one brand of EQ is as good as another" may be correct, but makes for less interesting reading.) However, take some obscure and questionable science, apply it to a system that's poorly understood by the layperson, make sure you isolate the system from all others in the body while ignoring the entire volume of research that proves your hypothesis is ridiculous to begin with, and then proceed to quote a few selective studies that seem to back your point, and BOOM, you've got a revolutionary article. People will be in awe.

    I have nothing further to say.

    I ****ing hate people.

    And yes, I have read the phantom tollbooth, though I don't recall that expression from it. While I would love to claim to be the author of such a descriptive phrase, I'm pretty sure it's a common, if somewhat currently underused, expression.
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
    "Alex is all knowing and perfect"-----Jane (loosely paraphrased)
    -515/745/700 bench/deadlift/squat
    Current mile time: 4:23
    Marathons: 3
    Century races: 3
    Ironmans: 1
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    Current supps: http://www.atlargenutrition.com/prod...covery/results

  17. #16
    Who me? Chubrock's Avatar
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    Haha damn Belial. Wasn't expecting such a longwinded response, but I appreciate it. I feel a good bit more comfortable now, especially with the analogy you used. Sometimes you gotta put things in simple form, especially for people like me who often just see the black and white of things. Dunno if I'll be able to convince this guy of anything, but at this point, I'm not too concerned about it. I'm not really sure he'd listen to me anyhow. He's under the assumption that just because this guy is a Dr. and works for a supplement company, that he is above scrutiny. Once again man, I appreciate the response.

    Fuck, fight, or hold the light.

  18. #17
    Do that voodoo that he do
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubrock View Post
    I'm not really sure he'd listen to me anyhow. He's under the assumption that just because this guy is a Dr. and works for a supplement company, that he is above scrutiny. Once again man, I appreciate the response.
    Interesting thread. I'll hit it up tomorrow.

    What I've highlighted above indicates that the doctor should be under extreme scrutiny, not above it. He's getting paid by a supplement company.

    Remember, a lot of studies, by legit universities/professionals, are unfortunately colored by the source of the grant paying for the study. When it's just a Dr.'s opinion while being paid by a supplement company...
    Be a man. Be awesome at it. Be proud of it. Beyond the Barbell

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  19. #18
    Who me? Chubrock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borris View Post
    Interesting thread. I'll hit it up tomorrow.

    What I've highlighted above indicates that the doctor should be under extreme scrutiny, not above it. He's getting paid by a supplement company.

    Remember, a lot of studies, by legit universities/professionals, are unfortunately colored by the source of the grant paying for the study. When it's just a Dr.'s opinion while being paid by a supplement company...


    Look forward to it Isaac. I sent him Belial's reply and this is what he had to say:

    "Well im not sure what he was trying to say... he didn't refute anything stated, all he did was a make generalizations and only talked about cortisol, none of the other issues. Let him debate the endocrinology (hormones), the diverted blood flow, etc, the issues at hand, not talk stories of steroid gurus or systems in isolation, which is really what eating pre-workout is all about, not taking the whole body into account and only assuming anabolism anabolism anabolism is the way to go. You talked of me needing references but this guy has none and doesn't really make any points other than supposedly the article talking of cortisol in isolation.

    Honestly to me it seemed like he didn't know how to refute what was said so he branched out with talk of other stuff unrelated to the topic at hand (steroids, sesamin), I mean come on. "

    Fuck, fight, or hold the light.

  20. #19
    Cardio bunny Alex.V's Avatar
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    Fair enough. It's funny how there's some sort of assumption that I was in any way directly addressing the issue. I was giving an example as to the illogical methods used; Chubrock, this was not meant as a rebuttal. Fact is, if somebody puts forward this sort of argument, the burden of proof is still on HIM to create a compelling argument. I saw nothing in that post to indicate that this was anything other than bad science. However, since the person you sent it to could not comprehend that the sesamin example was indeed quite relevant, I'll address this one.

    His first point about exercise on a full stomach is valid, however it is far more valid for aerobic exercise than anaerobic exercise, and is ignoring that pre-workout meals do not have to be mountains of food. During any sort of anaerobic activity, there are VERY FEW immediate demands on the bloodstream; by definition there is little need for oxygen exchange during a 20-30 second set. During the recovery period in between, there is ample time to re-oxygenate the muscle cells. This is not something that even needs citation, this is simply the nature of anaerobic activity. Lactic acid clearance MAY indeed be slowed by a full stomach.

    But again, the argument for a pre-workout meal is the argument that you need SOME calories pre-workout, a 200-300 calorie shake 45 minutes before exercise is plenty, and this is hardly enough to seriously impact bloodflow elsewhere. I don't think ANYBODY is arguing that you should eat a gigantic plate of pasta before a workout.

    This next point: "Well, I'll sure give you the fact that you may have an increased ability to throw around more weight -- but again, this too is limited. There will always be an upper limit to how much you can lift. You will still only be able to go so heavy before you risk a rupture, annihilate a joint, or risk required lengthy periods of absence from the gym, thereby halting progress anyway." is worthless. Of course you can get injured. You can ALWAYS get injured. The point is that you can, indeed, prolong your workout. I also see no mention of the fact that fatigue (which can be indeed induced by hypoglycemia) can also very easily lead to injury. This goes back to my example.. this is a classic case of arguing past a point, not against a point.

    Then he gets to his cortisol argument. Of which there is very little substance. He does cite some contradictions regarding cortisol, and the majority of them are quite true. Again, this goes back to my example... the facts are indeed correct. However, there are SO DAMN MANY ASSUMPTIONS that he makes. I mean, he picks and chooses which systems he wishes to comment on.

    Yes, Cortisol is an anti-inflammatory. Wonderful. Is this any reason whatsoever to encourage the hormone's release? Hell no. There are dozens of pathways that cortisol has an impact on, some catabolic, some indirectly anti-catabolic. Do you have any clinical evidence to indicate that you can IN ANY WAY favor either particular kind of action? Didn't think so.

    Ok, wait, cortisol release is encouraged by protein. But protein intake pre-workout can help maintain nitrogen balance in the hours following a workout. So wait, what's more important? Is there any evidence to back either one? Not seeing it.

    So, ok, wait, having blood flow directed to your gut gives you less blood in your muscles. Lactic acid clearance is slowed, oxygenation is decreased... so how long before a workout should you stop eating? Wait, you mean that your GI tract is still digesting food 12 hours after the average meal? So how long should I wait after a big meal? A medium meal? A high fat meal? A meal of cottage cheese? Are there any guidelines that I can be given that are remotely useful?

    In fact, that last question is the crux of my argument. There is NO INFORMATION in this article that is remotely useful. He makes mention of a few pathways. I could debate the science, I do have the biochemistry background, but there's no point in debating factual information. Again, the information is correct, it is the completeness of said information that is lacking, as well as any context... and the conclusions that are spurious. I would LOVE for this to be part of a thesis. Forget defending it. It would be laughed down. There are plenty of assertions made, and he hints at there being some sort of practical application to this careful deliniation of a few properties of a single hormone, but there isn't a single shred of evidence, empirical or otherwise, that this argument holds any water whatsoever.

    Yes, cortisol has important roles in the body. It does reduce inflammation. It does inhibit TNF receptors. Of COURSE it has protective effects. That is part of the hormone's purpose.

    But can you pick and choose these effects over the catabolic ones? I see nothing to remotely suggest this is possible. Even if you could, would this have a significant impact on body composition? Again, I see no evidence that it would. And if it DID, would this effect be greater than the positive effects of maintaining a positive (or at least, slightly less negative) nitrogen balance during a workout, and the positive effects of extending training duration and quality by staving off hypoglycemia?

    ... still not seeing it.

    If there is evidence, I would LOVE to see it. Even a quick sentence that outlines some guidelines that would be of use to the average trainee; some sort of reason for this article to be given a second thought.

    So please, if this guy could provide one, I'm all ears. Seriously. I will gladly admit when I'm wrong. I somehow doubt that is the case this time.
    Last edited by Alex.V; 03-29-2007 at 07:37 PM.
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
    "Alex is all knowing and perfect"-----Jane (loosely paraphrased)
    -515/745/700 bench/deadlift/squat
    Current mile time: 4:23
    Marathons: 3
    Century races: 3
    Ironmans: 1
    Ultramarathons: 1
    Current supps: http://www.atlargenutrition.com/prod...covery/results

  21. #20
    Who me? Chubrock's Avatar
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    Alex (I'm Andrew btw), I don't want you to think that I used your statement as a rebuttal to an arguement. I've just been talking with him and told him that you knew worlds more about this than I do, so I sent him your original post and told him this is what you had said after reading the article.

    I'll see if he can come up with any kind of hard evidence, though when I prompted him for some a couple of days ago, he said that he didn't have any but that I could surely get it all from the author of that article.

    Fuck, fight, or hold the light.

  22. #21
    Banned KingJustin's Avatar
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    Who the hell is this guy?

    I don't like anyone opposed to pre-workout nutrition.

  23. #22
    Cardio bunny Alex.V's Avatar
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    Hey, no problem man. It just rubbed me the wrong way that he would claim I was dancing around the science. It doesn't take a degree in biochemistry (which I do have, btw) to recognize a bad argument. In this case, a bad argument is one that is not adequately supported by the facts. As I outlined above, the problem is not in the author's understanding of a few of cortisol's actions, but rather in how he ties them together with no consideration of other factors to draw a rather silly conclusion. Actually, I take it back. He doesn't draw much of a conclusion at all.

    The sesamin example was simply meant to illustrate the dangers of ignoring the big picture, and there are some very, very good scientists who do this all too frequently. In the field I work in (drug development, pharma/biotech venture capital) you see this all the time... excellent idea on the drawing board and initial preclinical studies, and worthless in humans. Worthless, because there are one or two compounds, or systems, or feedback loops (or three or four, or five hundred) that the developers didn't take into account.
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
    "Alex is all knowing and perfect"-----Jane (loosely paraphrased)
    -515/745/700 bench/deadlift/squat
    Current mile time: 4:23
    Marathons: 3
    Century races: 3
    Ironmans: 1
    Ultramarathons: 1
    Current supps: http://www.atlargenutrition.com/prod...covery/results

  24. #23
    Who me? Chubrock's Avatar
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    Justin- A guy up at ECU. I know him fairly well, but only reason we got into it about this is because he has convinced Jimmie to follow all this crap.


    Alex- I hear ya man. Just wanted to straighten that out. Are you up at RTP? I know you had graduated from Duke and were working in that field, but didn't know if you had left the state or not.

    Fuck, fight, or hold the light.

  25. #24
    Cardio bunny Alex.V's Avatar
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    Andrew- Yep, working in RTP. I somehow can't seem to get the hell out of North Carolina. Not a bad place to be for biotech, though.
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
    "Alex is all knowing and perfect"-----Jane (loosely paraphrased)
    -515/745/700 bench/deadlift/squat
    Current mile time: 4:23
    Marathons: 3
    Century races: 3
    Ironmans: 1
    Ultramarathons: 1
    Current supps: http://www.atlargenutrition.com/prod...covery/results

  26. #25
    Who me? Chubrock's Avatar
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    Sometimes wish I had gone into that field, but I've always been good with numbers and the Accounting field tends to play to my strengths. This is getting way off topic, but where do you work out up there? I'll be taking an internship with John Hancock Financial and will be up in Raleigh at least 3 days a week. Wouldn't mind hitting up a session with you if we could ever swing it.


    As far as being on topic, he seems to be dancing around some of the points. If he replys with anything worthwhile, I'll post it up here so you can see.
    Last edited by Chubrock; 03-29-2007 at 08:23 PM.

    Fuck, fight, or hold the light.

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