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Thread: compound lifts vs isolation lifts (aside from hormone response)

  1. #26
    Senior Member Nate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bill View Post
    It should be evidenced to you in the gym. Watch the same people doing endless preacher bicep curls, db curls etc etc...
    You don't see them squating with some bad intentions or doing heavy bench or overhead. The physique's they carry is pretty good evidence to me. Which one is better, the skinny guy doing curls or the big dude doing some chins, squats, deads,?
    well i would argue that where ever he learned how to lift people would have gotten defensive about him questions their methods and chipped away at his ego until he didn't feel like arguing anymore

  2. #27
    Senior Member Nate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bill View Post
    As someone suggested, one reason of doing compounds is to increase natty test n growth hormone. So when talking of adding muscle, you can't not include the main precursors.
    the thing is though that some people argue that the hormone response that you get isn't significant

  3. #28
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nate View Post
    the thing is though that some people argue that the hormone response that you get isn't significant
    The acute response isn't.

    But what people don't realize is that the acute response is only a small part of the process. What occurs as an acute response to training doesn't necessarily have any effect on the chronic responses.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

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  4. #29
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nate View Post
    if that was the case why don't we all just do negatives with really high weight for a long time?
    You could. Just that you'd get injured after a few weeks into it.

    There are other adaptations to consider besides muscular cross-section.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
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    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
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    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
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  5. #30
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Also, just as a general response to the thread.

    It's easy to "isolate" the flexor/extensor groups, to include things like chest, shoulders, bicep/tricep and the knee functions of the quad/hamstrings. But how do you plan to isolate say the lats and midback muscles? The glutes? The spinal erectors? The biggest groups in the body don't tend to "isolate" so easily, and even if you could come up with some kind of exercise to do that, why the hell would you want to? It would extend your time in the gym from reasonable to ****ing ridiculous.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by PowerManDL View Post
    The biggest groups in the body don't tend to "isolate" so easily
    Amen. I've had a few novice lifters tell me that Bench Presses work the arms but not the chest. I usually respond, "how do you want to work your chest? Set a weight on it and flex over and over?"
    Last edited by Decker87; 04-15-2007 at 11:17 AM.

  7. #32
    Senior Member BFGUITAR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PowerManDL View Post
    Also, just as a general response to the thread.

    It's easy to "isolate" the flexor/extensor groups, to include things like chest, shoulders, bicep/tricep and the knee functions of the quad/hamstrings. But how do you plan to isolate say the lats and midback muscles? The glutes? The spinal erectors? The biggest groups in the body don't tend to "isolate" so easily, and even if you could come up with some kind of exercise to do that, why the hell would you want to? It would extend your time in the gym from reasonable to ****ing ridiculous.
    There are glute machines but thats besides the point :P

    Deadlifts and squat= functional strength
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  8. #33
    Senior Member JHarris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nate View Post
    if that was the case why don't we all just do negatives with really high weight for a long time?
    Most hypertrophy studies that have come out saying that its a combination of time under tension and amount of stress have focused on the concentric phase; we are not exactly sure how useful eccentric motion is for building muscle. There are some who will swear by it, and some who won't. But the evidence we currently have has more to do with time under tension during the concentric phase. That is why.

    Also, slow, heavy eccentric loading is EXTREMELY taxing to your system. It fries your nerves quickly, as well as your energy stores. This isn't necessarily efficient.

  9. #34
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFGUITAR View Post
    There are glute machines but thats besides the point :P
    I want to see you use one without contracting the hamstrings or spinal erectors.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  10. #35
    Player Hater PowerManDL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHarris View Post
    Most hypertrophy studies that have come out saying that its a combination of time under tension and amount of stress have focused on the concentric phase; we are not exactly sure how useful eccentric motion is for building muscle. There are some who will swear by it, and some who won't. But the evidence we currently have has more to do with time under tension during the concentric phase. That is why.
    Actually it's peak tension exposed to the fiber, regardless of muscle action being concentric or eccentric. Eccentric overload is just as stimulating, hypertrophy-wise, if not moreso. Akt-PI3K-mTOR responds very favorably to mechanical stretching, which is essentially what an eccentric is, and there's also the fact that eccentrics favorably recruit larger FT fibers, counter to what's observed in concentric actions.

    There are also models showing that the eccentric damage is what ultimately triggers adaptation (or at least contributes to it), be it from maximal-effort training or the final reps of a set to failure.

    My worries about eccentric-only training come from this:

    Also, slow, heavy eccentric loading is EXTREMELY taxing to your system. It fries your nerves quickly, as well as your energy stores. This isn't necessarily efficient.
    It's taxing on the joints, it's taxing on the local neuromuscular apparatus, and it's none too friendly on the muscle fibers and connective tissues.

    In short, it's not appropriate to use exclusively in most cases.
    Vin Diesel has a fever.. and the only prescription is more cowbell.

    Budiak: That girl I maced
    Budiak: macked
    Budiak: heh maced
    Budiak: I wish

    ShmrckPmp5: a good thing people can't fire guns through the computer...your ass would have been shot years ago

    Y2A 47: youre smooth as hell
    Y2A 47: thats why you get outta tickets, and into panties

    galileo: you're a fucking beast and I hate you
    galileo: hate

    assgrabbers are never subtile, they will grabb ass whereever they go,public or not, I know the type, because I am one. - Rock

  11. #36
    Senior Member Anthony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nate View Post
    you're kind of a prick
    No "kind of" about it - I definitely am.

    Your question was answered repeatedly, but you have your head so far up your ass with the bull**** "all I care about is looks, not strength" that you completely ignore anything that says GETTING BIG IS HIGHLY DEPENDENT ON GETTING REALLY STRONG. The best way to get strong is to teach your body to work like a unit, not segmented parts.
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  12. #37
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    I think if you had two people of the same genetic makeup, one doing nothing but isolation and the other doing nothing but Compound movements. In a years time the person doing nothing but compound would be bigger and stronger...and look better.

    But I would prefer looking at it by adding another person into the gruop...that being doing a combo of isolation and compound. I think this person would by far progress the most and have the best looking physique.

    I feel there is a need for both Isolation and coumpound movement for BODYBUILDING if there wasnt you would never see body builders doing any isolation work what so ever. For most of us average everyday type of guys I feel our routines should have more emphasis put on the compound movements since they build more muscle faster. But there were be body parts that lag and that is where some isolation work would come in.


    This is just my view from experience and reading from reputable sources.


    PS to the OP...dont get to rowd up over Anthony...that is just how he rolls...it may have something to do with him being from Canada
    Last edited by bics56; 04-16-2007 at 09:32 AM.

  13. #38
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    Not hard to answer. Compound movements done first work the strongest fibers in a muscle group. Isolation finish off the muscle and work the weaker areas within a muscle group when training the torso and legs.

  14. #39
    Breaker of Skulls Guido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
    No "kind of" about it - I definitely am.

    Your question was answered repeatedly, but you have your head so far up your ass with the bull**** "all I care about is looks, not strength" that you completely ignore anything that says GETTING BIG IS HIGHLY DEPENDENT ON GETTING REALLY STRONG. The best way to get strong is to teach your body to work like a unit, not segmented parts.
    Amen to that!
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  15. #40
    Addicted to Adrenaline LevesqueIsKing's Avatar
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    meh, by the number of flamers in here you would have thought that I made this thread... outnumber

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