The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness
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The Five Biggest Contradictions in Fitness

Itís no secret that when people contradict themselves, it has the effect of making the flaws in their actions or statements seem glaringly obvious. But what about when WE ourselves get caught contradicting ourselves by someone else?

By: Nick Tumminello Added: January 6th, 2014
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Thread: Chains vs Bands

  1. #26
    Magically Delicious redFury's Avatar
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    Here's a side question... has anyone ever thought about/used chains for non-linear additive resistance?

    I would think that feature would make them more appealing than bands... I've been trying to think about this application myself.
    Last edited by redFury; 06-22-2007 at 09:53 AM.
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  2. #27
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redFury View Post
    Here's a side question... has anyone ever thought about/used chains for non-linear additive resistance?
    Maybe I'm just dumb, but what do you mean? As in cable work?
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
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  3. #28
    Magically Delicious redFury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    Maybe I'm just dumb, but what do you mean? As in cable work?
    Sensei... you? Dumb? I don't think so....

    What I mean is that both bands and chains are typically (in my experience) used for linearly adding resistance to the bar. Meaning, for each unit of distance the bar travels, a specific "weight" is added.

    With chains however, you can hook them up such that the weight added is NOT linear. Meaning that the specific weight added actually increases... this could be done by attaching the chains every few inches.

    Like so (if laid on the ground)

    88888888888888888888888888
    8888888888888888888888
    888888888888888888
    88888888888888
    8888888888

    Do you see what I mean? Just wondered if anyone had tried this. I would think that this would be more beneficial... but I'm no kinesiologist.
    - rEDfURY
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    Philippians 4:13

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  4. #29
    Risk10k Clifford Gillmore's Avatar
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    I see what you mean red, its kind of defeating the point of the chains. Chains are to load and deload completely to get the effect they give. Essentially what you would be doing there is emulating the effect of bands.

    Kind of like those sleeves some companies are selling that let you attach the chains to sleeve with a leading chain, it eliminates the deload/load effect.

  5. #30
    Senior Member betastas's Avatar
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    So an exponential approximation based on linear segments? It would be doable, but needlessly complex. I'd stick with the linear loading.

  6. #31
    Senior Member deeder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by betastas View Post
    So an exponential approximation based on linear segments? It would be doable, but needlessly complex. I'd stick with the linear loading.
    Are you sure you're in the right section? Are you even on the right forum?

    This isn't WannaBeExcessivelyComplicatedWithRegardsToMyTraining.com
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    Total: 1537lbs -- 697.5kg -- Dec 20, '08 (Provincial Record @ 100kg class)
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  7. #32
    Magically Delicious redFury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risk10k View Post
    Essentially what you would be doing there is emulating the effect of bands.
    Bands add linear force however, so it's not the same... the benefit of what I'm talking about is the nonlinear force.

    Quote Originally Posted by Risk10k View Post
    Kind of like those sleeves some companies are selling that let you attach the chains to sleeve with a leading chain, it eliminates the deload/load effect.
    Never heard of this before, if its what I asked about that wouldnt surprise me. I was just curious on whether anyone had tried it... sounds like someone had

    Quote Originally Posted by betastas View Post
    So an exponential approximation based on linear segments? It would be doable, but needlessly complex. I'd stick with the linear loading.
    Exactly... exponential. Seems like an interesting idea. I don't think you have to worry about complexity... what I've asked about is really simple to implement.

    Quote Originally Posted by deeder View Post
    Are you sure you're in the right section? Are you even on the right forum?

    This isn't WannaBeExcessivelyComplicatedWithRegardsToMyTraining.com
    I thought you were an engineer lol... . You know you wanna analyze this physics problem!! Should be cake for ya! This is not that complicated... just look at my diagram .

    Everyone, I just wanted an intelligent discussion on how and if this would be beneficial. Being an engineer with this idea in his head... I just had to ask
    Last edited by redFury; 06-26-2007 at 09:09 AM.
    - rEDfURY
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  8. #33
    Senior Member betastas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deeder View Post
    Are you sure you're in the right section? Are you even on the right forum?

    This isn't WannaBeExcessivelyComplicatedWithRegardsToMyTraining.com
    Just using the proper terminology.

    Quote Originally Posted by redFury View Post
    Exactly... exponential. Seems like an interesting idea. I don't think you have to worry about complexity... what I've asked about is really simple to implement.
    It's more complicated to implement then regular bands or chains. Also, as an engineer, you'd know that you keep it simple unless there is a definite benefit to increasing the complexity. Try it out and report back on what you experience. I do not see the merit in going from linear to non-linear though.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by redFury View Post
    Here's a side question... has anyone ever thought about/used chains for non-linear additive resistance?

    I would think that feature would make them more appealing than bands... I've been trying to think about this application myself.
    Huh?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    Maybe I'm just dumb, but what do you mean? As in cable work?
    That's what I was thinking.
    Quote Originally Posted by redFury View Post
    Sensei... you? Dumb? I don't think so....

    What I mean is that both bands and chains are typically (in my experience) used for linearly adding resistance to the bar. Meaning, for each unit of distance the bar travels, a specific "weight" is added.

    With chains however, you can hook them up such that the weight added is NOT linear. Meaning that the specific weight added actually increases... this could be done by attaching the chains every few inches.

    Like so (if laid on the ground)

    88888888888888888888888888
    8888888888888888888888
    888888888888888888
    88888888888888
    8888888888

    Do you see what I mean? Just wondered if anyone had tried this. I would think that this would be more beneficial... but I'm no kinesiologist.
    Huh?
    Quote Originally Posted by betastas View Post
    So an exponential approximation based on linear segments? It would be doable, but needlessly complex. I'd stick with the linear loading.
    W
    T
    F
    ?
    Quote Originally Posted by deeder View Post
    Are you sure you're in the right section? Are you even on the right forum?

    This isn't WannaBeExcessivelyComplicatedWithRegardsToMyTraining.com
    Amen brother.
    Quote Originally Posted by redFury View Post
    Bands add linear force however, so it's not the same... the benefit of what I'm talking about is the nonlinear force.



    Never heard of this before, if its what I asked about that wouldnt surprise me. I was just curious on whether anyone had tried it... sounds like someone had



    Exactly... exponential. Seems like an interesting idea. I don't think you have to worry about complexity... what I've asked about is really simple to implement.



    I thought you were an engineer lol... . You know you wanna analyze this physics problem!! Should be cake for ya! This is not that complicated... just look at my diagram .

    Everyone, I just wanted an intelligent discussion on how and if this would be beneficial. Being an engineer with this idea in his head... I just had to ask
    Quote Originally Posted by betastas View Post
    Just using the proper terminology.



    It's more complicated to implement then regular bands or chains. Also, as an engineer, you'd know that you keep it simple unless there is a definite benefit to increasing the complexity. Try it out and report back on what you experience. I do not see the merit in going from linear to non-linear though.
    My brain hurts from trying to read this stuff. Chains are used for deload at the bottom, then progressive resistance from the floor to the top. Bands aid reversal strength by pulling the weight down faster than gravity, and thus, recruiting more muscle fibers.

    You guys are just confusing the s*** outta me!!

  10. #35
    Magically Delicious redFury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TommyBoy View Post
    You guys are just confusing the s*** outta me!!
    Sorry man, just was thinking about a slightly different way to use chains. You are right about the functions of both bands and chains, but I was contemplating adding a feature onto using the chains. I guess the discussion is now killed.
    - rEDfURY
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  11. #36
    Senior Member betastas's Avatar
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    He meant something like this.
    You'd have a ton of chain weight at the top, but a lot less at the bottom. It's just a fancy way of saying you're adding additional chains to the chains. So the first few inches would be about 5 pounds an inch, then the next few inches would add about 10 pounds an inch, then 15/inch, etc. etc.

    I drew a little picture. I only put chains on one side because I'm not an artist and I'm sure nobody cares.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by betastas View Post
    You'd have a ton of chain weight at the top, but a lot less at the bottom. It's just a fancy way of saying you're adding additional chains to the chains. So the first few inches would be about 5 pounds an inch, then the next few inches would add about 10 pounds an inch, then 15/inch, etc. etc.
    This is exactly what the chains are used for in the first place....why not just add more chains if you want more weight???

  13. #38
    Senior Member deeder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TommyBoy View Post
    This is exactly what the chains are used for in the first place....why not just add more chains if you want more weight???
    But come on man! It could be NON-LINEAR!

    I honestly don't think the whole idea would work... It'd be like having bands that relax completely at the bottom. When the tension hits you as you come back up it can throw you off.. Now you want to do this 5 or 6 or more times?
    Full Powerlifting
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    Total: 1537lbs -- 697.5kg -- Dec 20, '08 (Provincial Record @ 100kg class)
    Bench Only -- 358lbs -- 162.5kg -- Nov. 25, '07 (Provincial Record @ 90kg class)
    Bench Only -- 376lbs -- 171kg -- Jan. 26, '08 (Provincial Record @ 100kg class)

  14. #39
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    I understand what you're trying to say. BTW, are bands actually linear?

    Quote Originally Posted by TommyBoy View Post
    This is exactly what the chains are used for in the first place....why not just add more chains if you want more weight???
    Ok, so here's the concept: You find out your squat sticking point is, say, 24" off the ground. You attach a chain and hang a 30 lb dumbell 24" down from the bar. As you squat up, you'll have a sudden 60 lb jump right at your sticking point. This would force you to explode out of the hole really hard.

    It would be complicated and probably not necessary, but it would certainly be interesting to try to break a plateau. At worst, it would add some variety to your squats

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by betastas View Post
    Just using the proper terminology.
    This sums about just about every engineer I know.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedSpikeyThing View Post
    Ok, so here's the concept: You find out your squat sticking point is, say, 24" off the ground.
    Then set a box at 24" and load up the bar with weight.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by TommyBoy View Post
    Then set a box at 24" and load up the bar with weight.
    that would probably train it just as well, but there's a difference: you get a running start at the chain/dumbell way, whereas box squats are from a dead stop.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedSpikeyThing View Post
    that would probably train it just as well, but there's a difference: you get a running start at the chain/dumbell way, whereas box squats are from a dead stop.
    If you strengthen it from a dead stop, then you'll be stronger than doing it from a running start. This way you teach yourself to pause and then quickly explode, where as if you go from the bottom, you are relying purely on your stretch reflex in order to overcome the added weight of the chains/db's.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by TommyBoy View Post
    If you strengthen it from a dead stop, then you'll be stronger than doing it from a running start. This way you teach yourself to pause and then quickly explode, where as if you go from the bottom, you are relying purely on your stretch reflex in order to overcome the added weight of the chains/db's.
    Good point.

  20. #45
    Senior Member Sensei's Avatar
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    HAHAHAHA! Wow!

    Redfury,
    I get what you mean now. I know a lot of people have hooked up plates to rope to emulate loading something like chains. If you wanted to experiment, you could certainly hook up some 5s or 10s along the chain links - probably be fun.
    A child does not learn to squat from the top down. In other words, he does not suddenly make a conscious decision one day to squat. Actually, he is squatting one day and make the conscious decision to stand. Squatting precedes standing in the developmental sequence. This is the way a child's brain learns to use the body as the child develops movement patterns. Therefore, a child is probably crawling, rocks back into a squatting position with the back completely relaxed and the hips completely flexed, and stands when he has enough hip strength. This approach makes a lot of sense and can be applied to relearning the deep squat movement if it is lost. -Gray Cook
    Lifting Clips: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=johnnymnemonic2
    Blog: http://squatrx.blogspot.com/

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