Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 76

Thread: Variation in Bench Press Study

  1. #26
    Senior Member Howard 9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    1,026
    also then whats the difference of your pec major and minor? I am not aruging here, just wondering...
    [Journal | My Diet]
    [Bench 170x5 | Squat 255x5 | Deadlift 300x5]
    "It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried."

  2. #27
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    2,232
    Quote Originally Posted by Howard 9 View Post
    So your front delts do no work on flat?

    Theres no way you can say the workload is equal in the upper and lower chest on incline.

    Also if what your saying is right it should be on all excercises not just some.
    No, of course they do. But more work is on the delts when you do an incline. Again there is no such thing as "upper" or "lower" so I can say it very easily.

    What makes you think you can argue with anatomy and biology?

    Your argument is just as silly as saying humans dont need oxygen to breathe.

    But I'll tell you what. Ive tried my best to show you the actual science of the muscle fibers in the chest but you dont seem to comprehend it so theres no point in discussing a "myth" any further. So just continue to do your incline and be under the false notion that your upper chest is going to be HUGE!!11!
    First Bulk pics VS Starting pics, take a look!! http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=1#post1616109

    Progress pics of a cut using bodyweight only movements http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...45#post2405745

    Generally, if you read a piece of advice on the internet, assume it's wrong until proven otherwise. This applies especially to "conventional wisdom". -Belial

  3. #28
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    2,232
    Quote Originally Posted by Howard 9 View Post
    also then whats the difference of your pec major and minor? I am not aruging here, just wondering...
    The pectoralis minor is actually underneath the pectoralis major.. so its not even externally visible.

    The pec minor is involved when you do things like pullovers where the serratus muscles get worked whenever the scapulae rotate upward and outward like in an upright row.
    First Bulk pics VS Starting pics, take a look!! http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=1#post1616109

    Progress pics of a cut using bodyweight only movements http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...45#post2405745

    Generally, if you read a piece of advice on the internet, assume it's wrong until proven otherwise. This applies especially to "conventional wisdom". -Belial

  4. #29
    Senior Member Howard 9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    1,026
    Quote Originally Posted by RichMcGuire View Post
    No, of course they do. But more work is on the delts when you do an incline. Again there is no such thing as "upper" or "lower" so I can say it very easily.

    What makes you think you can argue with anatomy and biology?

    Your argument is just as silly as saying humans dont need oxygen to breathe.

    But I'll tell you what. Ive tried my best to show you the actual science of the muscle fibers in the chest but you dont seem to comprehend it so theres no point in discussing a "myth" any further. So just continue to do your incline and be under the false notion that your upper chest is going to be HUGE!!11!
    So you just admitted your upper will do more work on incline then.
    Are you saying then you can isolate any head of the tricep? Also Lee Hayward says you can do it!!!

    Also I don't think my upper chest is gonne get huge, I understand. However if you just do flat movemnts for chest I think that you are not utilizing every excercise to your benefit.
    Last edited by Howard 9; 06-23-2007 at 01:06 AM.
    [Journal | My Diet]
    [Bench 170x5 | Squat 255x5 | Deadlift 300x5]
    "It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried."

  5. #30
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    2,232
    Quote Originally Posted by Howard 9 View Post
    So you just admitted your upper will do more work on incline then.
    Are you saying then you can isolate any head of the tricep? Also Lee Hayward says you can do it!!!

    Also I don't think my upper chest is gonne get huge, I understand. However if you just do flat movemnts for chest I think that you are not utilizing every excercise to your benefit.
    No, I said nothing about your "upper" chest doing more work on the incline. I said the DELTOIDS.

    Every head is worked on the tricep. For instance, some fibers need to shorten for others to lengthen.

    You could get maximal development by doing a 5x5 benchpress routine. You dont need to do every movement in the book to get benefits. Thats counter productive.
    First Bulk pics VS Starting pics, take a look!! http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=1#post1616109

    Progress pics of a cut using bodyweight only movements http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...45#post2405745

    Generally, if you read a piece of advice on the internet, assume it's wrong until proven otherwise. This applies especially to "conventional wisdom". -Belial

  6. #31
    Senior Member Howard 9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    1,026
    Quote Originally Posted by RichMcGuire View Post
    No, I said nothing about your "upper" chest doing more work on the incline. I said the DELTOIDS.

    Every head is worked on the tricep. For instance, some fibers need to shorten for others to lengthen.

    You could get maximal development by doing a 5x5 benchpress routine. You dont need to do every movement in the book to get benefits. Thats counter productive.
    5x5 flat bench will not build a big chest. You need more.
    [Journal | My Diet]
    [Bench 170x5 | Squat 255x5 | Deadlift 300x5]
    "It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried."

  7. #32
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    2,232
    Quote Originally Posted by Howard 9 View Post
    5x5 flat bench will not build a big chest. You need more.
    You seem to over look many, many training ideas...Lets take a look at one:

    Frequency.

    You really dont think a 5x5 benchpress twice a week would not build a big chest?

    Lets look at another variable you neglected to mention:

    Extra calories.

    Youre saying that doing the benchpress 2 or 3 times a week while also consuming a surplus amount of calories will NOT build a bigger chest?

    Hmm..... News to me.
    First Bulk pics VS Starting pics, take a look!! http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=1#post1616109

    Progress pics of a cut using bodyweight only movements http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...45#post2405745

    Generally, if you read a piece of advice on the internet, assume it's wrong until proven otherwise. This applies especially to "conventional wisdom". -Belial

  8. #33
    Senior Member Howard 9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    1,026
    Quote Originally Posted by RichMcGuire View Post
    You seem to over look many, many training ideas...Lets take a look at one:

    Frequency.

    You really dont think a 5x5 benchpress twice a week would not build a big chest?

    Lets look at another variable you neglected to mention:

    Extra calories.

    Youre saying that doing the benchpress 2 or 3 times a week while also consuming a surplus amount of calories will NOT build a bigger chest?

    Hmm..... News to me.
    Not as much as if you supplement with one or two more excercises. Two heavy days would not give some people results either.
    [Journal | My Diet]
    [Bench 170x5 | Squat 255x5 | Deadlift 300x5]
    "It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried."

  9. #34
    Senior Member RichMcGuire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    2,232
    Quote Originally Posted by Howard 9 View Post
    Not as much as if you supplement with one or two more excercises. Two heavy days would not give some people results either.
    I didnt say both had to be heavy days did I? Just because its a 5x5 doesnt mean it has to be as heavy as a previous 5x5 day.

    And I never said that supplementing another exercise would not help..BUT what I am saying is a basic 5x5 Benchpress program WILL build a bigger chest provided 2 things:

    Overload and extra calories.

    Its simple.
    First Bulk pics VS Starting pics, take a look!! http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...=1#post1616109

    Progress pics of a cut using bodyweight only movements http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/sho...45#post2405745

    Generally, if you read a piece of advice on the internet, assume it's wrong until proven otherwise. This applies especially to "conventional wisdom". -Belial

  10. #35
    C.S.C.S. ddegroff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    3,817
    Quote Originally Posted by RichMcGuire View Post
    Upper/lower is referred as "regional hypertrophy" of one muscle. The fibers all attatch to the humerus except that the fibers that start at the bottom of the chest attatch at a higher point on the humerus than do the fibers that start on the top. The twisting of these fibers allows most chest movements to work all of the pectoral fibers at once. This makes it pointless to try and develop your "upper chest" by isolating it when maximal development would occur by focusing energy on a simple flat benchpress.
    That's a great explaination.

    Quote Originally Posted by Howard 9
    also then whats the difference of your pec major and minor? I am not aruging here, just wondering..
    Click the link in my sig ~> getbodysmart.com, It will really help you learn the body.
    Make Shift IF diet
    My Training Experience
    GET BODY SMART
    Goals:
    CF WOD and Recomp...
    "My fault. I was fiddling with the Gravitational Constant of the Universe again.
    I've set it back - you might need to reboot, though..." -Built

    "Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal--
    nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong attitude" - Thomas J

    "Obsessed is what the lazy call the dedicated" - Slim Schaedle

  11. #36
    Senior Member DNL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Posts
    1,808
    aww no more? c'mon i need entertainment at 3am...

  12. #37
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario
    Posts
    4,548
    just curious Rich, what's your background in? You know a ****load about anatomy

  13. #38
    Senior Member Natetaco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Raleigh NC
    Posts
    1,863
    Quote Originally Posted by Howard 9 View Post
    5x5 flat bench will not build a big chest. You need more.
    are you serious? i hope when you say "you need more" you mean you need to also eat and sleep.
    ________________________
    190ish lbs
    5'11
    Personal Accomplishments
    Bench:225x5, 255x1
    Squat:350x5
    Dead:370x5, 415x1

  14. #39
    Senior Member Howard 9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    1,026
    Quote Originally Posted by Natetaco View Post
    are you serious? i hope when you say "you need more" you mean you need to also eat and sleep.
    Theres no one i know who does one chest excercise.
    [Journal | My Diet]
    [Bench 170x5 | Squat 255x5 | Deadlift 300x5]
    "It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried."

  15. #40
    Senior Member Howard 9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    1,026
    Quote Originally Posted by DNL View Post
    aww no more? c'mon i need entertainment at 3am...
    For the most part thats really why i was replying...
    [Journal | My Diet]
    [Bench 170x5 | Squat 255x5 | Deadlift 300x5]
    "It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried."

  16. #41
    Cardio bunny Alex.V's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Duke
    Posts
    41
    Ugh.

    Few simple items, extrapolate these as you will:

    1) Differentiating muscles based on appearance of structure can be misleading. more correct is to differentiate them based on innervation. But good luck, the complexity of motor unit recruitment within a given muscle group goes far beyond the scope of this argument, and, no offense, would be completely wasted on the majority of those arguing in favor of "upper chest" exercises. This is not a slam, but honestly if you were in a position to understand all the complexities of muscle activation, you wouldn't be arguing. Conclusion from this point, though, is that you cannot arbitrarily assume that, since two muscles have different attachment points, they are not usually activated in unison.

    2) The bench press, and any press, is a very complex movement. Good luck trying to draw a free-body diagram for it. The incline bench, for example, uses almost every muscle in the upper body to coordinate the movement. Look at the vectors involved, and you'll start to see the complexity. Imagine a skeleton with no muscles on it other than the sternal head of the pectoralis major. This skeleton could move the humerus in a single plane. That is IT. ANY alteration in this plane, which roughly corresponds to a slight decline bench, requires the activation of other muscles at different points in the movement to control the movement. These other muscles include the entire deltoid group, the lats, the triceps, the biceps, the rotator group, the trapezius.... the list goes on. So to think of an incline bench as a "chest" exercise is somewhat silly. Now, the sternal head of the pectoralis is providing a major force vector (one that contributes significantly to the final vactor), correct? So is the anterior deltoid. So is the clavicular head of the pectoralis. Which one of these is doing the most? Well, depends on the angle of the bench. Depends on the individual's shoulder girdle size/shape. Depends on the individual's muscle attachment points. Depends on SO DAMN MUCH.

    3) EMG studies show nerve activation. To jump from here to hypertrophy is, well, oversimplifying to a laughable extent. The factors required for hypertrophy, again, go far beyond the scope of this debate, but even at the most simplistic level, you can argue that they include microtrauma from load and systemic hormone release. Of course, these are linked, as microtrauma from mechanical loading contributes to systemic hormone release. And, of course, damaging a muscle isn't enough for growth, otherwise stretching or tearing muscles would build a bigger muscle. EMG activation is a rough indication of work, which could be a rough indication of load, but this does NOTHING to demonstrate future potential for hypertrophy.

    4) The shape of a muscle is controlled genetically. A muscle, like any other structure or organ in the body, has a certain set of parameters in which it can grow. If it didn't, it would be, well, more like a tumor. If a muscle ordinarily contracts as a group, think of how devastating (structurally) it would be if one portion of a muscle grew more than the other. The muscle would tear itself apart. Every muscle has a given function, and systemically speaking, the body fights to maintain some level of balance. The clavicular head of the pectoralis major has a very similar function to the sternal head, and are often activated in unison. In fact, the main reason they are two heads is simply because of attachment points. There would simply be no way for the sternal head to attach to the collarbone WITHOUT having a break in the muscle on that side. Ergo, two different attachment points does not necessarily indicate drastically different functions.

    5) Stop reading articles that cite Jay Cutler as a source. Really. Stop it now.
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
    "Alex is all knowing and perfect"-----Jane (loosely paraphrased)
    -515/745/700 bench/deadlift/squat
    Current mile time: 4:23
    Marathons: 3
    Century races: 3
    Ironmans: 1
    Ultramarathons: 1
    Current supps: http://www.atlargenutrition.com/prod...covery/results

  17. #42
    Cardio bunny Alex.V's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Duke
    Posts
    41
    PS- totally stoked that I got to say "ergo" in a real post.
    "Except Belial. He knows everything. This isn't a sarcastic attack, either. He really knows everything." -----Organichu
    "Alex is all knowing and perfect"-----Jane (loosely paraphrased)
    -515/745/700 bench/deadlift/squat
    Current mile time: 4:23
    Marathons: 3
    Century races: 3
    Ironmans: 1
    Ultramarathons: 1
    Current supps: http://www.atlargenutrition.com/prod...covery/results

  18. #43
    Banned bjohnso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati Ohio
    Posts
    2,195
    Nice post Belial.

  19. #44
    Bodybuilding Mythbuster
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Yeongsan. South Korea
    Posts
    5,907
    I agree. Belial's post (along with some others in different threads) should be put in a sticky so that we don't have to repeat ourselves every few months. We could just refer people to that thread when they ask questions about lower/upper chest. It would save on bandwidth.

  20. #45
    Banned bjohnso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Cincinnati Ohio
    Posts
    2,195
    Quote Originally Posted by Songsangnim View Post
    I agree. Belial's post (along with some others in different threads) should be put in a sticky so that we don't have to repeat ourselves every few hours. We could just refer people to that thread when they ask questions about lower/upper chest. It would save on bandwidth.
    Fixed.

  21. #46
    Senior Member Howard 9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    1,026
    Finally found the article I have been looking for:
    http://www.musclewithattitude.com/re....do?id=1327855
    [Journal | My Diet]
    [Bench 170x5 | Squat 255x5 | Deadlift 300x5]
    "It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried."

  22. #47
    Bodybuilding Mythbuster
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Yeongsan. South Korea
    Posts
    5,907
    Lot of assumptions and guesswork in the article. (See the part about the cable crossovers for some examples).

    But basically he does say what people here have been saying. It may be possible to put more stress on one part of a muscle. That is not in dispute. What IS in dispute is whether this will make much of a difference. Again most people here doubt this based on their own personal experience. In fact the article (at the end) says a "a BIT more growth stimulus" (capitals are mine). Doing incline press is not going to make that much difference in the size of your pectorals as opposed to flat bench press. Genetics and hard training will maximize the size (along with proper nutrition).
    Last edited by Songsangnim; 06-25-2007 at 06:31 PM.

  23. #48
    C.S.C.S. ddegroff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    3,817
    Quote Originally Posted by Songsangnim View Post
    Lot of assumptions and guesswork in the article. (See the part about the cable crossovers for some examples).

    But basically he does say what people here have been saying. It may be possible to put more stress on one part of a muscle. That is not in dispute. What IS in dispute is whether this will make much of a difference. Again most people here doubt this based on their own personal experience. In fact the article (at the end) says a "a BIT more growth stimulus" (capitals are mine). Doing incline press is not going to make that much difference in the size of your pectorals as opposed to flat bench press. Genetics and hard training will maximize the size (along with proper nutrition).
    Couldn't agree more. At first I was like wow what is he getting at. Then at the end, I realized what he was getting at is you can stress certain fibers more but not enough to matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by from the article
    Hopefully after reading this article you'll understand exactly how and why it's possible to put a bit more growth stimulus on certain portions of a muscle group. I'll say it again though: you can't isolate a portion of a muscle. In fact, with regular exercises you can't even isolate one specific muscle entirely.

    However, it is possible to shift a bit more physiological stress (thus place a greater growth stimulus) on certain portions of a muscle. This is due to the four levels of muscle subdivision, which go way beyond the gross anatomical division previously thought to be true.

    Please understand that this article in no way means that you should drop big heavy compound movements in favor of a "shaping" program. It simply means you can correct certain weaknesses by selecting the proper assistance exercises over time. The base of your training program should still revolve around the basic lifts.
    All you need to read is the conclusion.
    Make Shift IF diet
    My Training Experience
    GET BODY SMART
    Goals:
    CF WOD and Recomp...
    "My fault. I was fiddling with the Gravitational Constant of the Universe again.
    I've set it back - you might need to reboot, though..." -Built

    "Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal--
    nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong attitude" - Thomas J

    "Obsessed is what the lazy call the dedicated" - Slim Schaedle

  24. #49
    Bodybuilding Mythbuster
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Yeongsan. South Korea
    Posts
    5,907
    http://www.wannabebigforums.com/show...hlight=sternal

    Read Powerman's post. That basically explains it all.
    Last edited by Songsangnim; 06-25-2007 at 06:53 PM.

  25. #50
    Senior Member Howard 9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    1,026
    Obviously I know you can't fully isolate. But am i gonna believe something that contadicts what I have experienced? Come on...
    [Journal | My Diet]
    [Bench 170x5 | Squat 255x5 | Deadlift 300x5]
    "It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried."

Similar Threads

  1. Is it necessary to do Military Press after Flat Bench Press?
    By fixationdarknes in forum Bodybuilding & Weight Training
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 01-15-2011, 10:26 AM
  2. The bench Press
    By Reinier in forum Bodybuilding & Weight Training
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 02-01-2010, 04:39 PM
  3. The Bench Press
    By Adam in forum Bodybuilding & Weight Training
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 05-17-2007, 11:46 AM
  4. Plyometric Bench Press Training
    By PowerManDL in forum Powerlifting and Strength Training
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 07-04-2003, 09:56 PM
  5. Bench press has returned.
    By Hellrazor in forum Bodybuilding & Weight Training
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 08-10-2002, 08:55 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •