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Thread: Religious questions (dont click if you dont want to hear religion debates)

  1. #151
    Senior Member TreeTrunks's Avatar
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    that one makes sense. I don't like to think analytically, I am a get to the point type person. You can use anaolgies to flower what you say and have people misunderstand you. Reminds me of politicans.

    As for you gyno it sounds like a smart ass comment, how was I suppose to know you were watching tommy boy? If you didn't mean for it to be a smart comment don't say it.

  2. #152
    MulletII - AKA Ninja Boner Gyno Rhino's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TreeTrunks
    I don't like to think analytically
    This server has enough posts wasting space. We don't need any more of this stating the obvious nonsense.
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  3. #153
    Senior Member hemants's Avatar
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    Anyhow Treetrunks, if a lack of complete concensus in the scientific community is enough to make you reject it as an accurate model of the universe, what then of the lack of concensus between religions?

    Is lack of concensus really your criteria for choosing a model? I don't think so.
    If the only thing you are holding is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

  4. #154
    Sanctified Muscle4Christ's Avatar
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    That's not the point here.

    The point is science can't prove it. Testomonies of religious people cannot prove it. So why is there an arguement on who is right and who is wrong, when neither side can even prove it?

    I have my beliefs, and you have yours. I cannot sway you, and you surely cannot sway me. So each and every person who tries to "debate" it should go on their merry way, and look for more answers until they start throwing out insults. My walk in Christ is nowhere near finished. It never will be. Your walk in science? I can't speak for you all, but I know it isn't anywhere near complete.
    Last edited by Muscle4Christ; 03-06-2002 at 06:53 AM.

  5. #155
    Senior Member hemants's Avatar
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    Science is not complete but 99.9% of it is self consistant and has been tested with rigour.

    99.9% of religous "truth" is based on hearsay, mythology, and testimony.

    Your faith may tell you that the earth is flat and science may say that it is spherical (albeit not perfectly so) and while neither of us knows to 100% certainty, I know who a reasonable person would place their bets on.

    In my opinion the real issue is that of scope.

    The scope of science is physical reality and IMO it does a pretty good job at modelling it.

    The scope of religion is self help and psychology and results can be good there as well.

    But when religion starts to encroach on science then a reasonable rational person has to wonder.

    Faith may be a good supplement to knowledge, but it makes a very poor substitute for it.
    Last edited by hemants; 03-06-2002 at 07:47 AM.
    If the only thing you are holding is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

  6. #156
    Senior Member TreeTrunks's Avatar
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    I agree with muscle there. Thing with science is they say they have 100% proof positive that this is they way it is. Then a few years down the road they say nope it wasn't this it was that. And it continues on and on. Science is inconsistant for the most part.

    This server has enough posts wasting space. We don't need any more of this stating the obvious nonsense.
    Whatever glen. I'm over it.
    Last edited by TreeTrunks; 03-06-2002 at 09:03 AM.

  7. #157
    Senior Member hemants's Avatar
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    "Thing with science is they say they have 100% proof positive that this is they way it is"

    Wrong. Science builds models to explain phenomena. The model is designed to be consistent with all observations to date, but is subject to evolve based on new observation.

    Never is there a claim that the model is 100% truth; but it IS mankind's best estimate of the truth within the scope that it covers.
    Last edited by hemants; 03-06-2002 at 08:55 AM.
    If the only thing you are holding is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

  8. #158
    Sanctified Muscle4Christ's Avatar
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    And man, as imperfect as man is... has a lot of room for errors.

  9. #159
    Senior Member hemants's Avatar
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    "And man, as imperfect as man is... has a lot of room for errors."

    True, particularly when designing religions
    If the only thing you are holding is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

  10. #160
    Sanctified Muscle4Christ's Avatar
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    But even so, the statement goes both ways...

  11. #161
    Senior Member hemants's Avatar
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    True, but for exactly that reason, an observation is not considered valid until it is repeatable under controlled conditions.

    I'll put my "faith" in a spherical earth but it's a personal choice.

    If the only thing you are holding is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

  12. #162
    Senior Member TreeTrunks's Avatar
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    hemants, science is always proving itself wrong on a daily basis. Once one person says ok this is how it happened another one a few years down the road says nope it goes like this. Its a never ending saga.

    Hemant, where in the bible does it say the earth is flat? I haven't read it in my bible.

  13. #163
    Senior Member hemants's Avatar
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    "hemants, science is always proving itself wrong on a daily basis"

    Well if it is wrong then someone is using the wrong to discredit the wrong. Kind of a self referential paradox isn't it?

    Once again, science is not "right" it is a model to explain reality. Yes there are grey areas on the frontier of science but there is also a core of knowledge that remains unchanged after centuries of study.

    The bible cosmology implies a flat, unmoving earth fixed on a foundation. I don't have a specific quote but it would suffice to say that there is no tree high enough that could be seen from everywhere on the earth if it is spherical.

    Also, pi is not 30/10 which is in another passage of the bible.

    But that doesn't matter. Who cares if the bible or any other religious book is 100% scientifically accurate?

    It is a self help book written by human beings to teach you the message of love. If used in that way, I have no problem with it or any other religious book.
    Last edited by hemants; 03-06-2002 at 09:22 AM.
    If the only thing you are holding is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

  14. #164
    Senior Member TreeTrunks's Avatar
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    If humans are imperfect then science is imperfect. Humans created science. But science can't explain the reasons why people beleive there is a supreme being, it is something you feel, if you haven't experienced that then you can't say there is not a God and religion is a sham. You can't see air but you know its there right? I have a problem with people telling me what I feel is wrong and that it is a bunch of crap and what not.

  15. #165
    Senior Member hemants's Avatar
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    Perhaps more importantly, spirituality and science do not have to be at odds with each other:

    1. Who or what facilitated the laws of evolution?

    2. If our soul is programmed in DNA, who or what is the programmer?

    3. When our sun supernova's it may take eons for life to evolve again somewhere else. But how long is "eons" really if there's no one around watching them go by?
    If the only thing you are holding is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

  16. #166
    Senior Member hemants's Avatar
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    By the way, humans created religion as well.

    "I have a problem with people telling me what I feel is wrong and that it is a bunch of crap and what not."

    Now we're getting somewhere. I agree with you. No one should make you feel that what you feel is not real or valid and you should definately explore that feeling with open eyes and a sharp intellect.

    I think the problem arises when you try to accept someone elses explaination of your feeling. That is where statements get divided into credible and crap.

    As I said before, within the domain of self help psychology, religion is an effective tool even if it is a placebo - if it works for you, who cares?
    If the only thing you are holding is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

  17. #167
    Senior Member TreeTrunks's Avatar
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    I do believe science and religion are involved, but I do not think that science alone can explain everything and anything.

    Well I do not like it when people tell me what I feel is wrong. How do they know its wrong when they haen't felt it? I know I don't care what others believe in, but don't tell me what I believe in is wrong.

  18. #168
    Senior Member hemants's Avatar
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    "Well I do not like it when people tell me what I feel is wrong. How do they know its wrong when they haen't felt it? I know I don't care what others believe in, but don't tell me what I believe in is wrong"

    In disentangling what you FEEL from what you BELIEVE IN is where I think you will find the truth.

    Good luck!
    If the only thing you are holding is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

  19. #169
    Senior Member TreeTrunks's Avatar
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    no no no no no, don't get what I said confused. The feeling, that I was talking about, is gods love. I believe in god for many reasons and onw of the reasons is that I feel gods love.

  20. #170
    Senior Member hemants's Avatar
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    It's cause and effect.

    You believe in X, you feel Y, you link them together like a Pavlovian response.

    In my experience, there are many ways to feel Y but that is something I encourage you to discover for yourself.
    If the only thing you are holding is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

  21. #171
    Senior Member TreeTrunks's Avatar
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    There are many reasons why I believe in God. Some of the events in my life I cannot say they are a conditioned stimulus or responce. It is further from a conditioned repsonce. I really don't feel like getting that personal about my life but events in my life have led me back to God. BUt you seem like one of the few people that I can talk to about things so. I used to be extremely hateful and had a lot of angst towards religion and God but those certain events in my life that I have experienced reaffirmed my faith in God.
    Last edited by TreeTrunks; 03-06-2002 at 10:51 AM.

  22. #172
    Senior Member hemants's Avatar
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    Whatever has happened to turn you in that direction, if it's working for you then all is well as long as it doesn't make you intolerant.

    But at some level, even psychological things follow the laws of cause and effect even if we don't always understand the mechanism.

    If the only thing you are holding is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

  23. #173
    Senior Member TreeTrunks's Avatar
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    Im not intolerant of others beliefs. I really don't care what others believe.

    Maybe your right about not knowing the mechanism of action. But I believe what has happened to me was not a learned responce to coincidences around me.

  24. #174
    Senior Member hemants's Avatar
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    If the truth is the truth, you will see it everywhere. When our sun supernova's and life re-evolves, the same truth will be the truth. Otherwise, it never was to begin with.
    If the only thing you are holding is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

  25. #175
    MulletII - AKA Ninja Boner Gyno Rhino's Avatar
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    Originally posted by hemants
    Whatever has happened to turn you in that direction, if it's working for you then all is well as long as it doesn't make you intolerant.
    There's a great point. If religion is something you can use to make you a better person (of course that's a very general statement), then more power to you. Some people get so wrapped up in it that it really messes them up. Let religion be a part of you, not you a part of religion, if that makes sense. Your beliefs should dictate "you", not whatever church you attend or book you read or so-on-and-so-forth.
    Founding Member and CEO of the FFFA

    "All that matters is beauty on the inside! Outside beauty doesn't matter!"
    ~This is something ugly people say to feel better about themselves...

    "Strength and size don't matter! It's not fair to judge training knowledge based on strength and size!"
    ~This is something wussy people say to feel better about themselves...

    Pearls of Wisdom...


    Resident Ninja Demon (with a pet Radioactive Sloth) and SchlonkeyMaster of WBB!

    Rock is my 'Big Viking Brother', and not in a homo-esque way.

    And no COLON jokes, bastards!

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