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Reko
10-30-2008, 11:01 PM
Still working on low bar positioning, only been doing it for maybe a month1, so, anything anyone sees as far as critiques would be appreciated (on the entire squatting process). More weight, less weight, knees, sitting back, rip it apart please.

225 + blues 2nd set:
Lk1lYCXfl9c

225 + blues 4th set:
rAtW9oMCin4

315 + blues 1st set (with 315 - lost balance a bit at the top of the first rep, hence the delay):
P7iaYd9hNBc

315 + blues 2nd set:
YiteinPIZw8



God that bar is ****ing bent.

WillNoble
10-30-2008, 11:22 PM
God that bar is ****ing bent.

THANKS SEAN!!!111

KarstenDD
10-30-2008, 11:37 PM
Dude, only problem I see is tha you might could try arching harder and driving your head back more before you start the lift, but that might just be the angle.

Sick speed, though.

Sean Hatley
10-31-2008, 03:27 AM
THANKS SEAN!!!111

Big deal. My bar is bent, so what.

Reko
10-31-2008, 06:23 AM
Big deal. My bar is bent, so what.

If that's that attitude you are going to have about it maybe you should take 'your' bent bar and find a different place to train.

Pete22
10-31-2008, 07:18 AM
Nice speed. 315 looked just as fast as 225.

Reko
10-31-2008, 07:36 AM
Dude, only problem I see is tha you might could try arching harder and driving your head back more before you start the lift, but that might just be the angle.

Sick speed, though.

It's probably not the camera angle, I'm still adjusting to the low bar position. It's still kind of funny feeling to be, but I'll keep that suggestion in mind.

WillNoble
10-31-2008, 07:41 AM
If that's that attitude you are going to have about it maybe you should take 'your' bent bar and find a different place to train.

I hear 24hr. fitness is nice

Chubrock
10-31-2008, 08:18 AM
Near hobbit proportions. Great speed.

Hazerboy
10-31-2008, 02:11 PM
I would say your 225 (4th set) is much faster than 315, though "how fast is fast enough" is something I've never really understood (which is probably why people vary the weights). You'll probably just have to find something that works for you. I like my speed to be somewhere in between your two vids.

BUT, srsly, be cautious when training with a bent bar, especially for speed work. I think doing that for 4 months over the summer has made my squatting setup really...weird. One shoulder is definitely lower than the other now, and from looking back at old videos and talking to my training partners, I never used to do that. To fix it I have to concentrate really hard and have others watch my setup a lot.

Have you seen any gains yet from switching to low bar yet? I had to drop fifty pounds when I was learning it... and I didn't even really get it down (with medium stance) for another 4-6 months. I'm just starting to get wider stances.

RhodeHouse
11-01-2008, 02:04 AM
1. Speed is fine. I'd slow it down a bit on the way down, though. You can't drop kike that with gear on.
2. You're rocking on the box. This is not good. You rock back and then forward to stand up. Your back rounds and you lose all your tightness and arch. Your box squatform should be identical to your free squat form. If I took the box away, you would fall on your ass.
3. Arch your back HARD! Drive your head back into the bar. When you reach the box DO NOT relax anything. Stay crazy tight and act as if there was no box there. What's going to happen is you'll become a good box squatter and you'll suck at free squatting. There's no box squat contests, so get good at free squatting.

Remember, your box and free form should be identical. Train exactly how you'll compete.

Brad08
11-01-2008, 03:48 PM
When you reach the box DO NOT relax anything. Stay crazy tight and act as if there was no box there. What's

The way you're describing it, is it any different than just doing a pause squat, no box?

Reko
11-01-2008, 04:02 PM
Have you seen any gains yet from switching to low bar yet? I had to drop fifty pounds when I was learning it... and I didn't even really get it down (with medium stance) for another 4-6 months. I'm just starting to get wider stances.

Yea, about 75 pounds more. Its still really wierd since its harder for me to stay tight (I'm not flexible in my shoulders I am finding out) but it's getting better. My ROM feel sooooo much shorter.


Rhodes, I'll worth on those thanks for looking.

Hazerboy
11-01-2008, 04:53 PM
2. You're rocking on the box. This is not good. You rock back and then forward to stand up. Your back rounds and you lose all your tightness and arch. Your box squatform should be identical to your free squat form. If I took the box away, you would fall on your ass.



This is something else that has never been real clear to me on box squats. I've never had someone experienced sit down and teach me how to box squat, so all I have to go on is videos of other experienced lifters doing it and reading around. Some places (as in articles I've read on WBB, and I think some T-nation articles on box squatting) say that you need to release your hip flexors and *sit back* on the box, while keeping everything else tight. but I always thought that sitting back on the box would give you momentum that you otherwise wouldn't have in free squatting. Seeing as how you actually train at westside (correct me if I'm wrong) I think I'll take your advice XD.



3. Arch your back HARD! Drive your head back into the bar. When you reach the box DO NOT relax anything. Stay crazy tight and act as if there was no box there. What's going to happen is you'll become a good box squatter and you'll suck at free squatting. There's no box squat contests, so get good at free squatting.

Remember, your box and free form should be identical. Train exactly how you'll compete.

You may a good point - when you do speed work, you're not only working on speed but *greasing the groove,* so why should your form be any different than how you squat in competition? But that makes me think -- why should you use the box at all when speed squatting? Its supposed to get rid of the *stretch reflex,* but even in competition you have the stretch reflex, so shouldn't you be training that also?

RhodeHouse
11-02-2008, 12:30 AM
The way you're describing it, is it any different than just doing a pause squat, no box?

Yeah, it is different. When you sit on the box, you do "relax" a bit. Or maybe better said, the box takes some of the strain from you. I'm not exactly sure how to put it. When you free squat, pause or not, there is no way in hell you could relax in any way shape or form.

The best way to box squat, in my opinion, is to sit on the box, but don't rock at all. Stay crazy tight and just explode back up without rocking. Mainly because you can't rock when you free squat. I don't know if that makes any sense.

RhodeHouse
11-02-2008, 12:31 AM
Yea, about 75 pounds more. Its still really wierd since its harder for me to stay tight (I'm not flexible in my shoulders I am finding out) but it's getting better. My ROM feel sooooo much shorter.


Rhodes, I'll worth on those thanks for looking.

Try to find a way to get your hands out wider. That should help the flexibility a bit.

RhodeHouse
11-02-2008, 12:41 AM
This is something else that has never been real clear to me on box squats. I've never had someone experienced sit down and teach me how to box squat, so all I have to go on is videos of other experienced lifters doing it and reading around. Some places (as in articles I've read on WBB, and I think some T-nation articles on box squatting) say that you need to release your hip flexors and *sit back* on the box, while keeping everything else tight. but I always thought that sitting back on the box would give you momentum that you otherwise wouldn't have in free squatting. Seeing as how you actually train at westside (correct me if I'm wrong) I think I'll take your advice XD.



You may a good point - when you do speed work, you're not only working on speed but *greasing the groove,* so why should your form be any different than how you squat in competition? But that makes me think -- why should you use the box at all when speed squatting? Its supposed to get rid of the *stretch reflex,* but even in competition you have the stretch reflex, so shouldn't you be training that also?

I don't train at Westside. I train at Southside in CT. I have been to Westside, though. Good story.

I'll ask you this, try to just sit back and "relax" your hip flexors while keeping everything else tight. It's impossible to do. The easiest solution is to just pause on the box for a 2 count. That will get rid of the rocking and the stretch reflex.

As for how the stretch reflex works - who cares? It doesn't matter. What you need to do is figure out what YOU need to do to improve your squat. Some think box squatting is the answer. Others don't. I box squatted for years with good success. I haven't used them much in a long time and have had continued success.

Here's a shameless plug for myself, but try this out.

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/raw_squatting.htm

I used this with my gear to squat 930 and stand up with 1000. Not a box squat in site. My point is, because Louie said it, doesn't make it gospel. Don't get me wrong. louie is the man. But, there are a million ways to skin a cat. Experiment for 3-4 months with different ideas. You need to let them run their course, though. That's what I think 3-4 months is a good duration.

Whatever you do, make sure YOU believe in it and believe it's gonna work.

I'm not sure if I helped or not.

BBShort
11-02-2008, 09:20 AM
Just to give a plug for Rhodes' squat program he linked there. I'm through 8 weeks of it and have increased my squat 60lbs. It works. So thanks Matt for a great article.

Daone
11-02-2008, 09:28 AM
Out of curiosity and for my own edification as well, what is the purpose of speed squats?

Ben Moore
11-02-2008, 10:38 AM
Out of curiosity and for my own edification as well, what is the purpose of speed squats?

To work on explosion and technique at lighter weight. It's also an easy way for powerlifters to get more volume in during the week without taxing the cns too bad.

Daone
11-03-2008, 09:16 AM
To work on explosion and technique at lighter weight. It's also an easy way for powerlifters to get more volume in during the week without taxing the cns too bad.

Thanks!

Kenny Croxdale
11-03-2008, 11:15 AM
The best way to box squat, in my opinion, is to sit on the box, but don't rock at all. Stay crazy tight and just explode back up without rocking. Mainly because you can't rock when you free squat. I don't know if that makes any sense.

Pausing on the box and blasting up is one way of performing Box Squat. However, if you watch Simmons' on one of his training tapes, you notice that he rocks forward a bit before ascending.

The Orignial West Side Box Squat was/is performed by rocking back on the box. As you rock back you lift you heels off the floor.

You then rock forward, as you start to ascend, you then drive you heels in to the floor. The Orignial West Side Box Squat method develop more power coming off the box. It worked for George Frenn, Peanuts West, etc.

Another method is a Plyometric Box Squat. It is a touch and go, that elicits the stretch reflex. That is what you do in a meet squat, you want some bounce ouf to the hole. Research shows that you can produce up to 18% more power when the a bounce is used.

The only way to develop the stretch reflex is to perform some type of plyometric movement (movement with a bounce). "Squatting: To Be Explosive, Train Explosive" goes into a varitey of plyometric squat methods that will help.

Josh Bryant, a powerlifter, goes into how plyometrics increased his squat and bench press. You can find that information at Josh's web site under plyometrics.

All of these method have a place in one's training.

Kenny Croxdale

Travis Bell
11-03-2008, 11:27 AM
When we do box squats now, we do it the way Rhodes described. We'll come to a complete stop, but don't rock way back anymore.

Times change and so do training methods

Reko
11-03-2008, 11:31 AM
When we do box squats now, we do it the way Rhodes described. We'll come to a complete stop, but don't rock way back anymore.

Times change and so do training methods

Did it change just to do something new/different or is the new way simply more effective?

AdamBAG
11-03-2008, 11:33 AM
We've been doing the same. Sit down and "commit to the box" while keeping your arch tight etc. The slam it off the box without rocking. I think this has helped my squat a lot.

Kenny Croxdale
11-03-2008, 11:57 AM
When we do box squats now, we do it the way Rhodes described. We'll come to a complete stop, but don't rock way back anymore.

Times change and so do training methods

Travis, some things change and some thing never change. In a competition squat, you want some bounce of of the hole. Performing a slight bounce out of the hole has not changed since the beginning of powerlifting.

One of the rules of training is the "Law of Specificity." That meaning that you need to train like you life. Since you perform the squat with a slight bounce (stretch reflex), you need to utilize some type of stretch training in your squat.

As I noted, research shows that when a bounce is evoked, up to 18% more power is developed.

A good example would be to perform a squat with a pause and then to perform a squat in which you elicit a slight bounce out of the hole. You find that you can squat more with a bounce that without a bounce, the due to the stretch reflex.

One of the deficiences of pausing a squat on the box is that it does not develop the stretch reflex. To develop the stretch reflex, you need to train the stretch reflex. Even Simmons has written about the use of plyometrics in training.

Ironically, in Simmon's West Side Bench Press Training Method, the movement is performed with a bounce. This develops the stretch reflex. Some type of stretch reflex training need to be performed with the squat to develop it, as well. The article "Squatting: To Be Explosive, Train Explosive" provides various plyometric method to chose from.

The Original West Side Box Squat Method worked. Geroge Frenn squatted an unheard of 852 back in 1973. Frenn peformed the squat in a regular squat suit...not Super Suits or Canvas Suits back then.

As I noted, pausing on the box has a place in one's training, as does the Orignial West Side Method and the plyometric box squatting method.

Kenny Croxdale

Kenny Croxdale
11-03-2008, 12:25 PM
Did it change just to do something new/different or is the new way simply more effective?

Good question.

Joe DeMarco is one of the founders of the Origianl West Side Barbell Club. He along with George Frenn, Peanuts West and a few other developed the Box Squat for powerlifting.

I was introduced to DeMarco at the 2006 Pasadena Fitness Expo. In discussing the Box Squat, DeMarco commented that Simmons never visited the Original West Side Club. So, Simmons was not completely familiar with precisely what the Orignial West Side Box Squat was.

Ron Fernando went over the "Rockin' Box" (Original West Side Box Squat) in a 1980 Powerlifting USA aritlce. Fernando described it as I did in a previoous post.

DeMarco went over the information about the Orignial West Side Box Squat with me. I then visited DeMarco at his gym to learn first hand exactly what the subtle differences were.

The plyometric box squat, is an offshoot of the box squat. The plyometric method develops the stretch reflex, which Simmons' and the Origninal West Side Box Squatting Method do not.

Each of these method develops stregnth in different areas. One is not necessairly better or wose than the other.

You need to utilize the method that addresses the needs of your training.

Kenny Croxdale

Travis Bell
11-03-2008, 01:02 PM
Did it change just to do something new/different or is the new way simply more effective?

We found that just stopping on the box and not leaning back so far was more productive than rocking way back. It made the groove more similar to a meet groove

Brad08
11-03-2008, 01:58 PM
We found that just stopping on the box and not leaning back so far was more productive than rocking way back. It made the groove more similar to a meet groove

So, no relaxation of the hip flexors?

Travis Bell
11-03-2008, 02:01 PM
minimal. Its really difficult to not relax at all, but there is very minimal relaxation in comparison to what we did before

Reko
11-03-2008, 03:17 PM
So then would speed bench be the same thing, with a tight pause on the chest with a more controlled lowering (since it would be tought to drop faster than gravity in a shirt) but exploding upward with it?

Ben Moore
11-03-2008, 03:20 PM
We found that just stopping on the box and not leaning back so far was more productive than rocking way back. It made the groove more similar to a meet groove

Was there a drop in the amount of weight used on DE days as a result of this?

For the record, I did this on my DE squats last night and liked it.

Travis Bell
11-03-2008, 03:31 PM
So then would speed bench be the same thing, with a tight pause on the chest with a more controlled lowering (since it would be tought to drop faster than gravity in a shirt) but exploding upward with it?

Well we have stuck with the same thing for our DE benching, being fast down and fast up, but I've been experimenting with pausing my rep out sets for high reps. Seems to be working but this weekend will tell

Travis Bell
11-03-2008, 03:32 PM
Was there a drop in the amount of weight used on DE days as a result of this?

For the record, I did this on my DE squats last night and liked it.

for the first couple sessions, yes because there was a tendency to drop down and slam the box, which you don't want to do. But once the guys got used to it, now they are using more weight than before

Reko
11-03-2008, 03:37 PM
Educational thread is educational.

Lones Green
11-03-2008, 03:43 PM
there is some great info in this thread for sure!

Hazerboy
11-04-2008, 02:11 AM
I actually just tried pause box squats tonight too. My speed felt just the same, if not a bit faster. the groove felt waaay better though - it was easier to arch and spread the floor apart. Much closer to a regular squat.

Kenny Croxdale
11-04-2008, 07:16 AM
So then would speed bench be the same thing, with a tight pause on the chest with a more controlled lowering (since it would be tought to drop faster than gravity in a shirt) but exploding upward with it?

Reko,

Just as with the squat, pausing the weight on the chest or using a bounce develops strength in a different way.

With a slight pause, some of the stretch reflex is lost. With a long pause, 4 sconds or longer, all of the stretch reflex is lost.

With a touch and go the stretch reflex is evoked.

All of these method are effective in building stregth.

As for lowering the bar, in a raw bench bench press, you want to lower the bar slowly. Doing so, decrecrease the force you have to exert in reversing the downward direction of the bar and pushing it back up.

With lighter loads, the bar can be allowed to drop more quickly. Doing so, preload the stretch reflex. The touch and go makes the movement plyometric, involves the stretch reflex.

Kenny Croxdale

Kenny Croxdale
11-04-2008, 07:20 AM
Well we have stuck with the same thing for our DE benching, being fast down and fast up

Travis,

The same concept works with the Box Squat as it does with the bench press, fast up and fast down. A touch and go off the box in squatting develops the stretch reflex, something that a pause does not do.

A lifter need some type of stretch reflex training to fully maximize their squatting potential.

Performing a Box Squat with a touch and go is one method of developing the stretch reflex.

However, there are other plyometric methods that can be employed, should one prefer not to use a touch an go off the box.

Kenny Croxdale

Travis Bell
11-04-2008, 07:54 AM
Guys, I wanted to add, make sure when doing these that you are sitting back far enough. Just like on boards when most people touch too high on the boards and don't mimick their full range groove, you need to sit far enough back so that when you hit the box, it mimicks your free squat. Do that and you'll be dynomite

Travis Bell
11-04-2008, 07:58 AM
Travis,

The same concept works with the Box Squat as it does with the bench press, fast up and fast down. A touch and go off the box in squatting develops the stretch reflex, something that a pause does not do.

A lifter need some type of stretch reflex training to fully maximize their squatting potential.

Performing a Box Squat with a touch and go is one method of developing the stretch reflex.

However, there are other plyometric methods that can be employed, should one prefer not to use a touch an go off the box.

Kenny Croxdale

Doing a touch and go off the box is fine in theory, but in reality its gets difficult for most people not to slam on the box and get in the habit of bouncing off the box.

Pausing will indeed train the stretch reflex unless you are pausing for like 6 seconds LOL. The stretch reflex lasts around 3 seconds if I'm not mistaken.

Course I'm just repeating what Lou has us do in the gym....

bill
11-04-2008, 07:59 AM
Kenny Croxdale,

So for Max effort ro Max attempts, your saying bringing the bar down slower is going to be the best way? I've read mostly bringing it down faster but under control is best.

AdamBAG
11-04-2008, 08:10 AM
Doing a touch and go off the box is fine in theory, but in reality its gets difficult for most people not to slam on the box and get in the habit of bouncing off the box.

Pausing will indeed train the stretch reflex unless you are pausing for like 6 seconds LOL. The stretch reflex lasts around 3 seconds if I'm not mistaken.

Course I'm just repeating what Lou has us do in the gym....

In my opinion committing to the box, like Travis describes, mimics the bottom of a comp squat when you are in briefs and a heavy suit. There comes a point where you just plain aren't going to go any lower and you have to reverse from a dead stop.

Getting the bar down faster has helped my bench as well, although it usually beats my shoulders up a lot on speed bench days.

Kenny Croxdale
11-04-2008, 09:04 AM
Doing a touch and go off the box is fine in theory, but in reality its gets difficult for most people not to slam on the box and get in the habit of bouncing off the box.

Pausing will indeed train the stretch reflex unless you are pausing for like 6 seconds LOL. The stretch reflex lasts around 3 seconds if I'm not mistaken.

Course I'm just repeating what Lou has us do in the gym....

Travis,

A touch and go works in reality as well as theory. Any exericse can be performed incorrectly. The opposite is true as well, any exercise can be performed correctly.

As with anything, the key is in learning to perform the movement correctly. You want to maximize the results you can get from a movement while minimizing the risk.

Research from Wilson (which Simmons has quoted) states that the stretch reflex can last up to 4 seconds. So, there is some validity to what you've been told.

However, there is more to the story. Wilson goes on to state that the stretch reflex quickly disolves, up to 50 percent of the stretch reflex is lost in one second. As you near 4 seconds in a pause, very little of the stretch reflex remains.

That means that after 4 seconds, very little of the stretch reflex is left. A good example would be to perform a squat, then perform a pause squat for 4 seconds.

You'll find that you can squat more when you get a slight bouce ouf to the hole vs a 4 second pause squat. You could do the same with a Box Squat. It works the same.

Wilson's research data is repoted in the book Supertraining. So, don't take my word or Louie's. Research it yourself.

There is other research on the stretch reflex that supports Wilson.

That does not mean that pausing when performing Box Squats is not a good movement. It siimply provides a different training effect.

Kenny Croxdale

Travis Bell
11-04-2008, 09:17 AM
Well I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I was not saying that we pause on the box for 3 or 4 seconds, but we do pause.

With the gear that most are wearing in competition, you will not be able to "bounce" out of the hole, nor will you need to pause for 4 seconds.

And for the record, I'm not just someone who talks to Louie, I'm a member at Westside Barbell so I know pretty well who he quotes and what his intended meaning is for what he says in his articles, as I see it in action every week.

Touch and go is certainly fine, its just not a method that we choose to employ right now at Westside Barbell.

Kenny Croxdale
11-04-2008, 09:35 AM
Kenny Croxdale,

So for Max effort ro Max attempts, your saying bringing the bar down slower is going to be the best way? I've read mostly bringing it down faster but under control is best.

Hi Bill,

I am a lifter and do research. The researcher part means that I am good at putting the pieces of a puzzle together.

The information I presented on lowering the weight slowly in a max bench press, squat, etc comes from research by Dr Tom McLaughlin (former powerlfiter and PhD in biomechanics).

McLauthlin's reasearch was prior to Super Shirts, so it was on what would be considered "raw" (benching in a t-shirt). McLaughlin researched the top bench pressers as well as novice/intermediate lifters.

McLaughlin's data demonstarted that when the bar is lowered in a bench (same with other lifts) the actual weight on the bar is magnified. How much the bar weight is magnified is dependent on the speed in which the bar is lowered and the distanct is drops.

The data showed that the reversal force need for elite lifters who lowered the bar slowly was 12% more than the bar weight, while novice/intermediate lifters who allowed the bar to drop quickly enountered 49% more than the weight of the bar.

Super Shirts have changed the dynamics of the movement. Super Shirts act as a braking system in lowering the weight. Many lifter find it hard to touch the chest the last few inches in a Super Shirt.

That means you need to apply more force to drive the bar down to your chest. There are three way to increase that force:

1) Increase the weight on the bar
2) Increase the speed in which you lower the bar
3) Increase the weight on the bar and the speed you lower the bar.

There is no research on how fast to lower the bar when wearing a Super Shirt. Common sense tell us that if you can't get the bar to touch your chest, you need to apply more force to drive it down.

Thus, when wearing a Super Shirt you need to allow the bar do descend a bit faster than you would if you were not benching with a Super Shirt, benching "raw." However, you don't want to allow it to free fall down to your chest.

The only way to find out how fast to lower it in a Super Shirt is to experiment with it in the gym. As Einstein said, "Reseach is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing."

Start with what you know and build from there.

Kenny Croxdale

Kenny Croxdale
11-04-2008, 09:42 AM
Well I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I was not saying that we pause on the box for 3 or 4 seconds, but we do pause.

With the gear that most are wearing in competition, you will not be able to "bounce" out of the hole, nor will you need to pause for 4 seconds.

And for the record, I'm not just someone who talks to Louie, I'm a member at Westside Barbell so I know pretty well who he quotes and what his intended meaning is for what he says in his articles, as I see it in action every week.

Touch and go is certainly fine, its just not a method that we choose to employ right now at Westside Barbell.

Travis,

You stated that the stretch reflex could last up to 3-4 seoncds. I simply added the rest of the information to that statement.

You can probably get some bounce out of your Super Suit. However, I am not sure about canvas suits. But some slight bounce will increase the weight you drive up, no matter the suit.

Have you read Supertraining yourself? More information is presented in the book than Louie or any elese could cover.

Not using a touch and go in the Box Squat is fine. However, to fully maximize your squat potential some type of plymetrics are needed. Simmons has presented information on plyometrics.

Josh Bryant, went into how plyometrics improved his lifts. Did you review Bryant on line information about that?

Kenny Croxdale

Travis Bell
11-04-2008, 09:50 AM
Travis,

You stated that the stretch reflex could last up to 3-4 seoncds. I simply added the rest of the information to that statement.

Yeah I realize I probably worded that a little unclear


You can probably get some bounce out of your Super Suit. However, I am not sure about canvas suits. But some slight bounce will increase the weight you drive up, no matter the suit.

I'm not arguing that a slight bounce would be good, just that its going to be extremely difficult and I think there is a higher risk for the lifter to throw himself out of the groove and end up injured by trying to bounce


Have you read Supertraining yourself? Nope


More information is presented in the book than Louie or any elese could cover.

Neat


Not using a touch and go in the Box Squat is fine. However, to fully maximize your squat potential some type of plymetrics are needed. Simmons has presented information on plyometrics.

hence why we use what is called the plyo swing.


Josh Bryant, went into how plyometrics improved his lifts. Did you review Bryant on line information about that?

Nope. I'm sure what he does works well for him though. Again I'm not arguing the use of plyometrics either. We use plyos a lot.



I'm sure what you do in your training works very well to help you achieve your own goals.

Hazerboy
11-04-2008, 02:12 PM
Don't take this too seriously buuut....

TL;DR

and I think a hearty "just SFW!" applies here

XD XD XD

KarstenDD
11-04-2008, 04:42 PM
Have you read Supertraining yourself? More information is presented in the book than Louie or any elese could cover.

Dude, would you honestly rather have someone who obviously knows what they are doing tell you what to do and explain it if he has too or try to figure it out by reading Super Training yourself? The second scenario makes no sense to me.

RhodeHouse
11-04-2008, 05:25 PM
Pausing on the box and blasting up is one way of performing Box Squat. However, if you watch Simmons' on one of his training tapes, you notice that he rocks forward a bit before ascending.

The Orignial West Side Box Squat was/is performed by rocking back on the box. As you rock back you lift you heels off the floor.

You then rock forward, as you start to ascend, you then drive you heels in to the floor. The Orignial West Side Box Squat method develop more power coming off the box. It worked for George Frenn, Peanuts West, etc.

Another method is a Plyometric Box Squat. It is a touch and go, that elicits the stretch reflex. That is what you do in a meet squat, you want some bounce ouf to the hole. Research shows that you can produce up to 18% more power when the a bounce is used.

The only way to develop the stretch reflex is to perform some type of plyometric movement (movement with a bounce). "Squatting: To Be Explosive, Train Explosive" goes into a varitey of plyometric squat methods that will help.

Josh Bryant, a powerlifter, goes into how plyometrics increased his squat and bench press. You can find that information at Josh's web site under plyometrics.

All of these method have a place in one's training.

Kenny Croxdale

The problem with rocking is the gear now doesn't allow you to do that. In my opinion, there is no reason to train differently than you compete. The nature of the super-tight gear doesn't allow for a rapid descent or a "bounce" in the bottom. Squat suits and bench shirts are so tight that you need to be dead on in the groove to make them work. There are no deep squats where guys "bounce" out of the hole anymore. The suit stops you and you drive out of the hole. Same with benching. The bar barely touches and you get the press call. I am familiar with the old rocking box squat, I don't think it translates into today's gear. I may or may not be right, but that's what I've noticed. I personally, think the box squat hurts free squatting.

Kenny Croxdale
11-05-2008, 11:24 AM
The problem with rocking is the gear now doesn't allow you to do that. In my opinion, there is no reason to train differently than you compete. The nature of the super-tight gear doesn't allow for a rapid descent or a "bounce" in the bottom. Squat suits and bench shirts are so tight that you need to be dead on in the groove to make them work. There are no deep squats where guys "bounce" out of the hole anymore. The suit stops you and you drive out of the hole. Same with benching. The bar barely touches and you get the press call. I am familiar with the old rocking box squat, I don't think it translates into today's gear. I may or may not be right, but that's what I've noticed. I personally, think the box squat hurts free squatting.

Rhodehouse,

I agree to some extent that you need to train like you lift. However, if that is totally true, then you'd want to pause the bar on you chest in the bench press and to have a slight touch and go when squatting off the box in training.

Squatting to a box to some extent is similar to a tight suit and raps. You can get some bounce off the box and even with a tight suit and wraps, you want to get a little bounce out of the suit as you would off the box.

As you noted, the suit stop you and you drive out of hole. That is exatly what what a touch and go on the box does. It stop you and then you drive out of the hole.

A prime examle is to see how much you you can squat off a box with a pause, rocking off the box or performing a touch and go.

Verkhoshansky ("Supertraining" and "Fundamentals of Special Strength Training") breaks the three above down into catagories.

1) Isometric Explosive--a concentric movement stared from a dead stop.
Example: Box Squats with a pause.

2) Explosive Ballistic--a movement with some moementum generated prior to the beginning of the concentric movement. Example: Rocking Box Squat

3) Explosive-Reacive-Ballistic--a movement in which the stretch reflex is elicited prior to the start of the concentric movement. Example: Touch and Go Box Squat.

Box Squat or any of the variations above are not for everyone. The various Box Squatting methods are simply tool that can be employed in one training to address specific training needs.

The only way to find out if they work for you, it to experiment with them.

I simply want to provide other training tools that other may find make a difference in their training. Some of them have made a difference in mine and some of the individuals that I have worked with.

Kenny Croxdale

Kenny Croxdale
11-05-2008, 11:39 AM
Dude, would you honestly rather have someone who obviously knows what they are doing tell you what to do and explain it if he has too or try to figure it out by reading Super Training yourself? The second scenario makes no sense to me.

You missed the point. The point was that Louie provided some of the informaiton on the stretch reflex but not all of the inforamtion.

So, would you rather know part of the answer or all of the answer to a question.

Certainly, education is provides by those around you. However, to maximize your knowledge, you need to read a variety of research data.

"Knowledge is power." The more information you expose yourself to the more you learn.

"Success favors the pepared mind." A blance of practical/hand on learning through empirical data combined with reading research data make a great athlete and a great coach.

Kenny Croxdale

Brad08
11-05-2008, 12:22 PM
So, are the box squatting recommendations different for raw vs. geared squatters, or is they all just "different tools at different times" regardless of gear?

KarstenDD
11-05-2008, 04:45 PM
You missed the point. The point was that Louie provided some of the informaiton on the stretch reflex but not all of the inforamtion.

So, would you rather know part of the answer or all of the answer to a question.

Certainly, education is provides by those around you. However, to maximize your knowledge, you need to read a variety of research data.

"Knowledge is power." The more information you expose yourself to the more you learn.

"Success favors the pepared mind." A blance of practical/hand on learning through empirical data combined with reading research data make a great athlete and a great coach.

Kenny Croxdale

I want to know whatever answer will help my raise my squat.

Cards
11-05-2008, 05:16 PM
I don't box squat (yet) and I don't train in gear but this discussion has been awesome.

Kenny Croxdale
11-06-2008, 06:46 AM
So, are the box squatting recommendations different for raw vs. geared squatters, or is they all just "different tools at different times" regardless of gear?

Brad08,

Yes. A raw squat is different than a geared squat. The Super Suit changes they dynamics of the lift.

A tight Super Suit stops you (as RhodeHouse stated) in the bottom position, about parallel. You then push off the suit, somewhat like you push off the box.

However, what you also want to do (if possible) is get some rebound out of the suit and your knee wraps. The last couple of inches, you allow the eccentric/downward speed of the bar to increase a little.

You want to sling shot out of the hole a bit. Allowing the bar to drop evokes the stretch reflex (which we have discussed).

You also get a little sling shot effect from the Super Suit, which again is somewhat like performing a touch and go Box Squat.

You want to do the same when raw squatting.

Again, the dynamics of a Super Suit changes where your sticking point are. That means that raw and geared squats are two different movements. Thus, as you stated, "You want to use different tool for different times"...or in this case use different tool to train different movements.

Kenny Croxdale

Kenny Croxdale
11-06-2008, 07:20 AM
I want to know whatever answer will help my raise my squat.

KarstenDD,

Great point. Like you, I go to the bottom line. If there is no carry over from an exercise to the movement, What's the point of performing the movement?

As you noted, you learn from others who know what they are doing. Secondly, learn by read books like Supertraining, The Fudamentals of Special Strength, Science and Practice of Strength Training, High Threshold Muscle Building, etc, as well as research periodicals.

These book and research periodical provide you with a better understanding of strength training concepts. Once you understand a training concept, you can apply it to your training in a variety of ways. That means you learn to write effective programs that will raise your squat.

That is exactly what Simmons did. The list of book above is what Simmons has read. Simmons took those concepts and revolutionized how powerlifters train today.

So, the key to rasing you squat is increasing your knowledge. Nothing replaces the combination of those in the sport (Simmons, Travis Bell, RhodeHouse), reading book/periodicals and experimentation

Good luck with your lifting.

Kenny Croxdale

RhodeHouse
11-06-2008, 10:49 AM
Now this is getting ridiculous. You can quote all these books writtten by guys who are pencil-necks. You seem to love to quote other people's ideas and writings. Someone said it earlier. SFW! Really, it's that simple. No one at the top is worrying about what someone said in Supertraining. And, this thread is a pissing co ntest. No matter what someone says, the last guy on the computer that night wins the argument. Clearly, you enjoy reading your own writing because you've put a novel's worth of writing on here. In all that rambling, you haven't given one idea that is your own. All quoted from George Frenn, Louie, Siff... Come on? I can quote all these guys too. It doesn't mean I know what I'm talking about. I squatted 930 and stood up with 1000. I haven't done a speed squat in years. In fact, I haven't done a true max effort squat in years. All the writing and thoeries are a load of horsecrap. According to Louie, I shouldn't be getting stronger. Well, I am. According to the old Westside Barbell, I should be doing rocking squats.

They're all fine ideas and theories. At the end of the day, no book is going to make you stronger. No amount of research is going to improve your total. Training with strong guys, eating well, and geting enough rest are the true answers.

If someone is really worried about training the stretch reflex, my guess is, they're still weak. I'll bet my right nut that Ryan Kennally doesn't "train his stretch reflex." He's not a bad lifter. I know Chuck V isn't worried about this. Put some more weight on the bar and lift it. SFW!

Kenny Croxdale
11-07-2008, 08:26 AM
[QUOTE=RhodeHouse;2031792]

They're all fine ideas and theories. At the end of the day, no book is going to make you stronger. No amount of research is going to improve your total. Training with strong guys, eating well, and geting enough rest are the true answers. QUOTE]

RhodeHouse,

Knowing how to apply training principles makes you stronger when you combine it with some sweat.

No one is really using ideas of their own. The foundation of today's ideas/training is based on what we have learned from others.

Research improves performance in sports. Knowing what works and doesnt' work.

Trainng with strong guys, eating well and getting enough sleep are a part of the answer.

I am sure your program works. However, West Side works. And that program was built by Simmons. Built from his reading books who were athletes in their day and imagrated into coaching.

I use a variation of the West Side program, Complex Training. So, if you'd like to read "one of my ideas" google "Complex Training For More Strength and Power." It was in Powerlifing USA/Feb 2001. You can find it on line.

I see this board as an exchange of ideas and theories along with hand on experience.

Kenny Croxdale

RhodeHouse
11-07-2008, 08:34 AM
[QUOTE=RhodeHouse;2031792]

They're all fine ideas and theories. At the end of the day, no book is going to make you stronger. No amount of research is going to improve your total. Training with strong guys, eating well, and geting enough rest are the true answers. QUOTE]

RhodeHouse,

Knowing how to apply training principles makes you stronger when you combine it with some sweat.

No one is really using ideas of their own. The foundation of today's ideas/training is based on what we have learned from others.

Research improves performance in sports. Knowing what works and doesnt' work.

Trainng with strong guys, eating well and getting enough sleep are a part of the answer.

I am sure your program works. However, West Side works. And that program was built by Simmons. Built from his reading books who were athletes in their day and imagrated into coaching.

I use a variation of the West Side program, Complex Training. So, if you'd like to read "one of my ideas" google "Complex Training For More Strength and Power." It was in Powerlifing USA/Feb 2001. You can find it on line.

I see this board as an exchange of ideas and theories along with hand on experience.

Kenny Croxdale

It is an exchange of ideas, but the "look at what I can quote" thing gets really old fast. Any one of us can google stuff.

I don't believe in researching how to get strong. I've never seen it work. I believe in training with the best. That's what really works. SFW!

Kenny Croxdale
11-07-2008, 08:44 AM
[QUOTE=Kenny Croxdale;2032459]

It is an exchange of ideas, but the "look at what I can quote" thing gets really old fast. Any one of us can google stuff.

I don't believe in researching how to get strong. I've never seen it work. I believe in training with the best. That's what really works. SFW!

I read book and research periodicals as well as google information. You ask for "my one of my own ideas" and I provided it.

I sounds like you don't read much research information. If you, you missing out.

Many individuals who never see thing work are those who never try them. And I can guarantee that if you never try something it will never work.

Good luck on your lifting,

Kenny Croxdale

RhodeHouse
11-07-2008, 08:51 AM
[QUOTE=RhodeHouse;2032471]

I read book and research periodicals as well as google information. You ask for "my one of my own ideas" and I provided it.

I sounds like you don't read much research information. If you, you missing out.

Many individuals who never see thing work are those who never try them. And I can guarantee that if you never try something it will never work.

Good luck on your lifting,

Kenny Croxdale

I don't need your philosophical advice. I ask those who know about training. Those who have neen there. Reading is what students have to do.

Cards
11-07-2008, 06:51 PM
[QUOTE=Kenny Croxdale;2032459]

It is an exchange of ideas, but the "look at what I can quote" thing gets really old fast. Any one of us can google stuff.

I don't believe in researching how to get strong. I've never seen it work. I believe in training with the best. That's what really works. SFW!

I'll jump in here really quick. I do believe researching on how to get strong has been beneficial. My research comes from reading this websites as well as the posts from power lifters such as your self. I personally would not be where I was today with out the information that is readily available here. I do understand where you are coming from but I do think that research when accompanied by common sense does create results.

Travis Bell
11-07-2008, 08:00 PM
Well I believe what Rhodes is getting at (correct me if I'm wrong man) is that basing your training purely on science and theories and equations is pointless. Rather, getting your training advice from people who formulate their training ideas upon what actually made them strong (which means they've gotten elite level strong by using their ideas) and implementing those ideas into their own training.

Often enough we hear arguments that "no that isn't the best idea because such and such book says that x*y(z*q/x)= whatever, so you're wrong" when in fact what we are doing has made us strong. Its made others strong. Instead we hear arguments from people that are not nearly a fraction as strong as those we learned our ideas from, that we are doing it wrong because of a book or some stupid equation.

Fortunately though, there are many other lifters who are willing and able to learn from the experiences of others and make their progress in lifting. Nothing makes me happier than sharing what has been shared with me and watching them become strong. I get great fulfillment out of watching others meet and exceed their own personal goals.

Conversely its greatly irritating when others jump in and argue that what I'm repeating from what I've been taught and has worked for many, is wrong or not effective. Especially when reality says that it does work.

Such is life though.

vdizenzo
11-07-2008, 09:44 PM
I got stronger by lifting with stronger athletes. Some of the information I am using now comes from Wenlder. He's been there and done that. I also subcribe to the SFW method see http://www.sfwplc.com/ . I have read Supertraining, quite honestly I found it useless unless you are going to use it as a one board. Lift weights not books. SFW!

Vincent Dizenzo

Kenny Croxdale
11-08-2008, 08:22 AM
[QUOTE=Kenny Croxdale;2032477]

I don't need your philosophical advice. I ask those who know about training. Those who have neen there. Reading is what students have to do.

:)...yea, and that is what great coaches are...Students of the game. Learning is on going process. However, you could be the exception.

Good luck with your lifting,

Kenny Croxdale

Kenny Croxdale
11-08-2008, 08:42 AM
[QUOTE=RhodeHouse;2032471]

I'll jump in here really quick. I do believe researching on how to get strong has been beneficial. My research comes from reading this websites as well as the posts from power lifters such as your self. I personally would not be where I was today with out the information that is readily available here. I do understand where you are coming from but I do think that research when accompanied by common sense does create results.

Well put!

Kenny Croxdale

Kenny Croxdale
11-08-2008, 08:53 AM
[QUOTE=Travis Bell;2032850]Well I believe what Rhodes is getting at (correct me if I'm wrong man) is that basing your training purely on science and theories and equations is pointless. Rather, getting your training advice from people who formulate their training ideas upon what actually made them strong (which means they've gotten elite level strong by using their ideas) and implementing those ideas into their own training. QUOTE]

Hey Travis,

First of all, nice article on you in Powerlifting USA.

I never stated that training should be based "purely on science and theories." Everything works on paper but not in real life.

What I am saying is that research combined with empiricalal data/hands on training information is a hard combination to beat. Simmons has show us that.

Most of the books that I listed were read and recommended by Simmons, he's stated that. Many of the articles that Simmons has published use/quote information from those books.

Simmons success with training programs revolves around what he find out in the lab/the gym. Trying things to see what works and doesn't work.

Some of Simmons ideas have been driven by the books that he has read.

One of the keys to success is to emulate what successful people do. With that in mind, I read Louie's articles and I read the books that he reads.

Science also works backwards. We find something that works and then try to understand why it work. We can build off knowing that.

You basically stated that you were researching paused reps, "...I've been experimenting with pausing my rep out sets for high reps." You basically informed us that you let us know the result of that, which is what Cards poted.

Cards post was well put on this, "My research comes from reading this websites as well as the posts from power lifters..."

From the exchange of information we find out what works and what doesn't work.

Kenny Croxdale

chris mason
11-08-2008, 09:26 AM
Rhodes, lol, you make me smile when I read some of your stuff.

For anyone reading what he writes you have to realize that he exaggerates to make a point. I am sure Matt has read a few things in his day, but he wants to make the point that he feels someone like Kenny spends too much time perseverating about how to train and probably not training himself, or doing what it takes to optimize his own training.

So, I agree with Kenny in the sense that you should read and educate yourself, but I also agree with Rhodes that actually training hard, eating, and providing for recovery are what make people strong.

RhodeHouse
11-08-2008, 10:33 AM
[QUOTE=RhodeHouse;2032485]

:)...yea, and that is what great coaches are...Students of the game. Learning is on going process. However, you could be the exception.

Good luck with your lifting,

Kenny Croxdale[/COLOR]

I am the exception. Absolutely.

Let me ask you this. With all of your empirical/methodical/hemmoroidal evidence, what are your numbers? How strong are you? Maybe I should listen to you. Maybe I should go out and buy some books.

Don't spout off at me about good coaching and studying the game. I don't know about you, but I'd rather be a player than a coach. I'd rather get under the weight and lift it than wonder how or why I just lifted it. I already know why I lifted it. Because I'm strong.

Find strong people and you'll get strong, unless you just wanna be a coach.

vdizenzo
11-08-2008, 02:04 PM
So, I agree with Kenny in the sense that you should read and educate yourself, but I also agree with Rhodes that actually training hard, eating, and providing for recovery are what make people strong.

Chris, I feel I must jump in here. Too many young kids are worrying about the minutia to training instead of just following some basic training. Everytime I hear a yound kid or newb talking about deloading I want to bash my skull in. When they ask me when to deload I usually tell them in about 3 years.

I was able to accomplish quite a bit before I read anything on powerlifting. The internet was not happening then and I certainly did not know about books such as Supertraining. I can assure you that a few weeks ago when I was eating dinner with Ryan Kennelly, Rob Luyando, Chad Aichs, Matt and Kenny we were not talking about the stretch reflex or Verhovsky. Some people just make this out to be a lot more difficult than it is.

Here is my new book, Lift hard, eat/supplement right, and sleep. Now everyone can just mail me 5 bucks, thank me, and get stronger.

RhodeHouse
11-08-2008, 02:36 PM
Chris, I feel I must jump in here. Too many young kids are worrying about the minutia to training instead of just following some basic training. Everytime I hear a yound kid or newb talking about deloading I want to bash my skull in. When they ask me when to deload I usually tell them in about 3 years.

I was able to accomplish quite a bit before I read anything on powerlifting. The internet was not happening then and I certainly did not know about books such as Supertraining. I can assure you that a few weeks ago when I was eating dinner with Ryan Kennelly, Rob Luyando, Chad Aichs, Matt and Kenny we were not talking about the stretch reflex or Verhovsky. Some people just make this out to be a lot more difficult than it is.

Here is my new book, Lift hard, eat/supplement right, and sleep. Now everyone can just mail me 5 bucks, thank me, and get stronger.

Dude, I want a cut. I helped you write that book.

Kenny Croxdale
11-09-2008, 08:26 AM
[QUOTE=Kenny Croxdale;2032983]

I am the exception. Absolutely.

Let me ask you this. With all of your empirical/methodical/hemmoroidal evidence, what are your numbers? How strong are you? Maybe I should listen to you. Maybe I should go out and buy some books.

Don't spout off at me about good coaching and studying the game. I don't know about you, but I'd rather be a player than a coach. I'd rather get under the weight and lift it than wonder how or why I just lifted it. I already know why I lifted it. Because I'm strong.

Find strong people and you'll get strong, unless you just wanna be a coach.

I have decent number for my age/weight class. So, I am a bit of a "player."

I have the heart of a lifter but not the genetics. My shortcomings were not picking the right parents...:) I do the best with what I've got.

I enjoy the coaching and helping others. Your posting on this board indicates that to some extent, you do to.

I believe you, as everyone else replies to question on the board, get something out of sharing information with others.

Great coaches are students of "the game." They continue to analyze the game and their players.

Great coaches, are usually "B Players" at best.

Great "Players' have an innate ability to do something without thinking about it. These guy can just do it. I learned this from Chip McCain.

Chip McCain was one of the best deadlifters in the late 1970s. McCain pulled a world record 799 lbs at 198 in 1979.

I interviewed McCain prior to the meet and after the meet. In the pre-meet interview McCain had indicated he was going to pull around 775 lbs.

After the meet, I ask McCain why he went to 775 lbs. McCain's reply was, "Because I knew I could."

I learned was great "players" have a 6th sense, so to speak. They are introspective. You find that with great coaches, as well.

However, even great "player" can become better via learning.

Kenny Croxdale

Kenny Croxdale
11-09-2008, 08:39 AM
Chris, I feel I must jump in here. Too many young kids are worrying about the minutia to training instead of just following some basic training. Everytime I hear a yound kid or newb talking about deloading I want to bash my skull in. When they ask me when to deload I usually tell them in about 3 years.

I was able to accomplish quite a bit before I read anything on powerlifting. The internet was not happening then and I certainly did not know about books such as Supertraining. I can assure you that a few weeks ago when I was eating dinner with Ryan Kennelly, Rob Luyando, Chad Aichs, Matt and Kenny we were not talking about the stretch reflex or Verhovsky. Some people just make this out to be a lot more difficult than it is.

Here is my new book, Lift hard, eat/supplement right, and sleep. Now everyone can just mail me 5 bucks, thank me, and get stronger.

Kids do need to focus on the basics. They do get caught up in too much hype. That part of being a kid and new to the game.

I doubt many lifters understand the stretch reflex, what it is, the role that it plays in lifting, etc.

Lift hard, eat/supplement right, and sleep are some of the keys. But you need to have some knowledge of how write a program to make that work.

It similar to going on a trip with out a rode map. If you have enough gas and time you can drive around long enough to get to you destination.

Driving around in a car will eventually get you there, but why not map your trip (know and write an effective training program) that takes you there the quickest?

Kenny Croxdale

Kenny Croxdale
11-09-2008, 08:51 AM
Rhodes, lol, you make me smile when I read some of your stuff.

For anyone reading what he writes you have to realize that he exaggerates to make a point. I am sure Matt has read a few things in his day, but he wants to make the point that he feels someone like Kenny spends too much time perseverating about how to train and probably not training himself, or doing what it takes to optimize his own training.

So, I agree with Kenny in the sense that you should read and educate yourself, but I also agree with Rhodes that actually training hard, eating, and providing for recovery are what make people strong.

Hi Chris,

I try to make my exmples simple. If my examples are a bit exaggerated, I apoligise. I can get a bit wordy in going over information.

"Not training myself" isn't my problem. My problem is more in overtraining.

I have optimized my training. I own a few state records in my age/weight class.

I have agreed with the post that stated training hard, eating and recovery make strong people. Like my dad said, "The harder I work, the luckier I get."

Kenny Croxdale

Travis Bell
11-09-2008, 11:32 AM
I guess I hadn't realized you'd been in the game quite so long Kenny. I may not see quite eye to eye with you, but I'll give any man respect that's been pushing iron as long as you have. I'm sure you've seen some very amazing things. Keep lifting brother

Kiff
11-09-2008, 01:54 PM
[QUOTE=Kenny Croxdale;2032477]

I don't need your philosophical advice. I ask those who know about training. Those who have neen there. Reading is what students have to do.

Asking people that know or reading answers from people that know are the same thing? surely to research from asking questions or finding your own answers withing books is equally benificial?

Travis Bell
11-09-2008, 01:56 PM
I think we need to make a sticky on how to quote other posters

RhodeHouse
11-09-2008, 02:49 PM
[QUOTE=RhodeHouse;2032485]

Asking people that know or reading answers from people that know are the same thing? surely to research from asking questions or finding your own answers withing books is equally benificial?

Now you're splitting hairs. Learn by watching and lifting with the best. It's the only way to get bigger and stronger.

RhodeHouse
11-09-2008, 02:53 PM
[QUOTE=RhodeHouse;2033033]

I have decent number for my age/weight class. So, I am a bit of a "player."

I have the heart of a lifter but not the genetics. My shortcomings were not picking the right parents...:) I do the best with what I've got.

I enjoy the coaching and helping others. Your posting on this board indicates that to some extent, you do to.

I believe you, as everyone else replies to question on the board, get something out of sharing information with others.

Great coaches are students of "the game." They continue to analyze the game and their players.

Great coaches, are usually "B Players" at best.

Great "Players' have an innate ability to do something without thinking about it. These guy can just do it. I learned this from Chip McCain.

Chip McCain was one of the best deadlifters in the late 1970s. McCain pulled a world record 799 lbs at 198 in 1979.

I interviewed McCain prior to the meet and after the meet. In the pre-meet interview McCain had indicated he was going to pull around 775 lbs.

After the meet, I ask McCain why he went to 775 lbs. McCain's reply was, "Because I knew I could."

I learned was great "players" have a 6th sense, so to speak. They are introspective. You find that with great coaches, as well.

However, even great "player" can become better via learning.

Kenny Croxdale

Good numbers for your age/weight class. Why not post them? Genetics? That's a BS excuse.

Clearly, you love to hear yourself talk about this stuff. If you can't even post your numbers, then I don't care what you have to say. Maybe I'm a jerk, but that's my way. It's like you're trying to convince me to think your way. Ain't gonna happen. All of your philosophical rambling about coaches being B teamers and blah, blah, blah, just confirms my thoughts.

I haven't been the best player since high school. But, I plyed college and pro ball, and I've been at the top. I never did any of that stuff you talk about. I just played. That's what the great ones do. They just play.

vdizenzo
11-09-2008, 03:02 PM
Genetics, ha. I started this sport at 5'8" 198lbs. I'll never forget in high school while coming in for extra weight traiing my sophmore year, one of the seniors told me I have never seen someone train so hard and not make any gains. He really did not mean it as an insult. I have been a hard gainer my whole life. I had to fight battles my whole way up through sports. I was never gifted, I just worked my ass off. I hope no new lifters are paying attention to this genetics nonsense.

As far as having the perfect map to get where you're going I say bunk to that also. Isn't the trip the best part. Yeah, sometimes you are going to veer off course, but that is where you learn what you did wrong. I'm done with this thread. I hate jargon. I see it all the time as an educator. It is simply a way for someone to try and feel superior.

Kenny Croxdale
11-10-2008, 07:54 AM
[QUOTE=Kenny Croxdale;2033403]

Good numbers for your age/weight class. Why not post them? Genetics? That's a BS excuse.

Clearly, you love to hear yourself talk about this stuff. If you can't even post your numbers, then I don't care what you have to say. Maybe I'm a jerk, but that's my way. It's like you're trying to convince me to think your way. Ain't gonna happen. All of your philosophical rambling about coaches being B teamers and blah, blah, blah, just confirms my thoughts.

I haven't been the best player since high school. But, I plyed college and pro ball, and I've been at the top. I never did any of that stuff you talk about. I just played. That's what the great ones do. They just play.

My number are posted on the California State USPF and New Mexico NSCA web pages.

Genetics is BS? Why can't everyone be a professional athlete in whatever sport they chose?

What does posting number mean? Is the lifter who lifts the most the smartest? Is he/she the best coach? Is that how we should chose our coaches?

I enjoy discussing training and learning.

I basically stated that great athletes can play. However, why aren't you still a professional? Why weren't you the best professional player on the field? Since genetics has nothing to do with it. Why don't we see you doing Nike commericals? I understand the pay is pretty good.

If you don't like what I post, don't repond. That would eliminate some of the misery you seem to be going through...:)

Good luck with you on your lifting,

Kenny Croxdale

Kenny Croxdale
11-10-2008, 08:02 AM
Genetics, ha. I started this sport at 5'8" 198lbs. I'll never forget in high school while coming in for extra weight traiing my sophmore year, one of the seniors told me I have never seen someone train so hard and not make any gains. He really did not mean it as an insult. I have been a hard gainer my whole life. I had to fight battles my whole way up through sports. I was never gifted, I just worked my ass off. I hope no new lifters are paying attention to this genetics nonsense.

As far as having the perfect map to get where you're going I say bunk to that also. Isn't the trip the best part. Yeah, sometimes you are going to veer off course, but that is where you learn what you did wrong. I'm done with this thread. I hate jargon. I see it all the time as an educator. It is simply a way for someone to try and feel superior.

Like you, I am a hard gainer. I stuggled to make gains, as you did.

If genetics is not an issue, why did you have to struggle?

The message from you is more like, "You will never know how much you can to until you try." That is my philosophy, as well.

I agree the trip is the best part. But why take a trip without a rode map?

Great analogy, "you veer off course...lean from what you are doing."

Kenny Croxdale

RhodeHouse
11-10-2008, 09:53 AM
[QUOTE=RhodeHouse;2033541]

My number are posted on the California State USPF and New Mexico NSCA web pages.

Genetics is BS? Why can't everyone be a professional athlete in whatever sport they chose?

What does posting number mean? Is the lifter who lifts the most the smartest? Is he/she the best coach? Is that how we should chose our coaches?

I enjoy discussing training and learning.

I basically stated that great athletes can play. However, why aren't you still a professional? Why weren't you the best professional player on the field? Since genetics has nothing to do with it. Why don't we see you doing Nike commericals? I understand the pay is pretty good.

If you don't like what I post, don't repond. That would eliminate some of the misery you seem to be going through...:)

Good luck with you on your lifting,

Kenny Croxdale

Two herniated discs in my neck is why I'm not playing somehwhere.

Numbers matter because it shows whether or not you're talking out of your ass or not.

Genetics is the loser's excuse for why he sucks at life. I'm done with this.

To the new guys, please don't worry about anything except training hard and eating well. After 10 years of solid training, then, maybe, you should read a book. Just train. It's that simple.

Kenny Croxdale
11-13-2008, 11:07 AM
[QUOTE=Kenny Croxdale;2033867]

Two herniated discs in my neck is why I'm not playing somehwhere.

Numbers matter because it shows whether or not you're talking out of your ass or not.

Genetics is the loser's excuse for why he sucks at life. I'm done with this.

To the new guys, please don't worry about anything except training hard and eating well. After 10 years of solid training, then, maybe, you should read a book. Just train. It's that simple.

Sorry to hear about you disc problem. However, if genetics don't count...why would some kind of disc problem. Isn't that an excuse for losers?

I have some pretty good numbers. They are posted on the California State USPF and New Mexico NASA state records.

Genetics is for losers. So, anyone can become a professional athlete? After all you proved that, right?

Since you never provide us with any real information on your being a professional athlete, we don't know for sure, do we?

So, training hard and eating as much as you can are all it takes. No need to know anything about sets, reps, loading percengages. Strength Coaches are definitely over paid...:)

Kenny Croxdale

RhodeHouse
11-13-2008, 11:22 AM
[QUOTE=RhodeHouse;2033966]

Sorry to hear about you disc problem. However, if genetics don't count...why would some kind of disc problem. Isn't that an excuse for losers?

I have some pretty good numbers. They are posted on the California State USPF and New Mexico NASA state records.

Genetics is for losers. So, anyone can become a professional athlete? After all you proved that, right?

Since you never provide us with any real information on your being a professional athlete, we don't know for sure, do we?

So, training hard and eating as much as you can are all it takes. No need to know anything about sets, reps, loading percengages. Strength Coaches are definitely over paid...:)

Kenny Croxdale

Yes, genetics is for losers. I just answered this in another post. I have Marfans Sydrome. Look it up. I know you like to read, sothis will be a good research session for you. Yes, "Gentics is the weak man's excuse for sucking at life." -Matt Rhodes and, you can quote me on that.

The neck required surgery to continue to play. I decided it was time to grow up and move on. As for being a professional athlete, I can say I've been paid to play a sport. Can you? I have my first check on my wall.

Yes, strength coaches are grossly overpaid. I was one of them, as well. The need for anyone, is to find athletes that are better than you are at your given sport and train with them. The rest takes care of itself.

I sat at dinner with Ryan Kennelly, Rob Luyando, Vincent Dizenzo, Chad Aichs, and Kenny Hinchman when we were in Vegas for the Olympia. Not once did we talk about sets and reps, percentages, and all that other bull. This is almost verbatum what Ryan Kennelly said about benching 1100. "Well, I figure if I wanna bench 1100, I might as well try to put 1200 in my hands. That way, 1100 doesn't feel as heavy. If I can take 1200 to a 3 board, I should be able to lockout 1100."

I don't know about any of you guys, but that doesn't sound terribly scientific to me. Put some more weight on the bar and lift it. That's really as complicated as this stuff is. If you think it's more than this, you're terribly wrong.

And, guys got strong before Westside and Louis Simmons. Yes, his methods are revolutionary, but certainly not the only path to strength.