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Irishman86
08-18-2009, 09:45 PM
I'm not sure if this post belongs here but I thought it fit best. I'm going into high school and I was planning on doing indoor field (shot put, javelin, discus). I was wondering what I should expect when I start. I would like to be a bit prepared. I have been going to the gym a lot this summer and I can do more than double what I did when I started on every machine I use (machine as in not free weights I guess). I'm a novice with weightlifting... saying that generously. But when I say what should I expect, I mean what would go on at practice and how far should a freshman be able to throw the shot, javelin and/or discus?

Thank you for any help.

tomv
08-18-2009, 10:10 PM
Get off of the machines buddy. Some have a time and a place but for now you sound like a novice and that means heavy compound barbell movements.

I know very little about developing strength for throwing lifts specifically but getting a whole lot strong all over definitely won't _hurt_ your performance. For more specific information try looking up a bloke called "Dan John", very strong and smart guy who is also a nationals level throwing competitor.

Travis Bell
08-19-2009, 09:19 AM
Yeah you really need to drop the machines and get on some free weights. Get some spotters if you're nervous.

The distances you throw won't really matter when you start because it won't be a very good indication of your potential because there is a LOT of technique involved in all of those.

You are really going to need to focus on your squat, bench and dead. Speed training will be essential

You're going to get told a lot to do hang cleans and other Oly lifts, DON'T DO THEM. You'll get much stronger and be a better thrower with other stuff.

Tom Mutaffis
08-19-2009, 01:05 PM
Travis -

What are your thoughts on swapping out bench press for incline bench press in throwers / athletes?

This would build more triceps / shoulder power, but more importantly seems to greatly reduce the chance for injury since pec tears are most common in flat bench (Not sure on the relationship of rotator problems from bench vs. incline bench).

I completely agree that free weights are the way to go and power movements will help you to put on the most amount of mass. One way to compare the two is that a Superheavyweight Olympic Weight lifter is anyone over 231 lbs, a Superheavyweight Powerlifter is anyone over 308 lbs... more than a 75 lbs difference.

For a high school athlete it is important to balance studies and sports. The people who excel are those who apply themselves to learning as much as possible and listen to the experts. Find an intelligent training program, eat a high protein diet with lots of good food, rest, and work hard.

Clifford Gillmore
08-19-2009, 01:20 PM
I was going to say something similar about exchanging the Bench with OH Press, but I wasn't really qualified to say anything about that - especially since Westside has a thrower!

Tom Mutaffis
08-19-2009, 01:48 PM
I was going to say something similar about exchanging the Bench with OH Press, but I wasn't really qualified to say anything about that - especially since Westside has a thrower!

I am thinking that for a lot of guys they would not be able to handle much weight on the OH press, but I have seen a lot of football teams who do incline work (since you block by pressing upwards instead of forward).

They even had incline press for max as one of the events in the NFL lineman challenge.

Not to mix football and throwing, but I am thinking that it could be a safer alternative. Close grip bench is still something that I would include for triceps power and I consider it to be a great movement (board presses would be good but I am not sure I would trust high school guys to do this without qualified spotters).

Travis is the expert when it comes to bench though, and has worked with more throwers than I have.

Travis Bell
08-19-2009, 02:01 PM
Travis -

What are your thoughts on swapping out bench press for incline bench press in throwers / athletes?

This would build more triceps / shoulder power, but more importantly seems to greatly reduce the chance for injury since pec tears are most common in flat bench (Not sure on the relationship of rotator problems from bench vs. incline bench).

I completely agree that free weights are the way to go and power movements will help you to put on the most amount of mass. One way to compare the two is that a Superheavyweight Olympic Weight lifter is anyone over 231 lbs, a Superheavyweight Powerlifter is anyone over 308 lbs... more than a 75 lbs difference.

For a high school athlete it is important to balance studies and sports. The people who excel are those who apply themselves to learning as much as possible and listen to the experts. Find an intelligent training program, eat a high protein diet with lots of good food, rest, and work hard.

I don't have my throwers do incline or OH press work as their main lift. Rather I have them do it as an accessory exercise. Your shoulders (specifically your front delts) are still used in bench pressing.

Pec tears are still quite uncommon when proper technique and form are used for benching, just as ac joint and labrum tears are uncommon when proper technique and form are used for OH pressing.

OH pressing and incline pressing are very good to have as accessory work, but you also have to put a huge emphasis on the upper back. The upper back is the forgotten part of the throw. Most people get so wrapped up in their bench and shoulder strength that they forget the upper back.

So for example, I have my throwers go through a typical Westside ME bench workout, using some form of flat bench for their ME lift, then incline or shoulder work for their first accessory movement, then two tricep movements and finish one upper back movement (usually 6 sets) and some forearm and wrist work to finish.

Then on DE day I switch it a little to the DE bench, then if we did incline work on ME day, it'll be OH work (light) on DE day (or visa versa) then two upper back movments, one tricep movment and forearm and wrist work.

Tom Mutaffis
08-19-2009, 02:27 PM
I don't have my throwers do incline or OH press work as their main lift. Rather I have them do it as an accessory exercise. Your shoulders (specifically your front delts) are still used in bench pressing.

Pec tears are still quite uncommon when proper technique and form are used for benching, just as ac joint and labrum tears are uncommon when proper technique and form are used for OH pressing.

OH pressing and incline pressing are very good to have as accessory work, but you also have to put a huge emphasis on the upper back. The upper back is the forgotten part of the throw. Most people get so wrapped up in their bench and shoulder strength that they forget the upper back.

So for example, I have my throwers go through a typical Westside ME bench workout, using some form of flat bench for their ME lift, then incline or shoulder work for their first accessory movement, then two tricep movements and finish one upper back movement (usually 6 sets) and some forearm and wrist work to finish.

Then on DE day I switch it a little to the DE bench, then if we did incline work on ME day, it'll be OH work (light) on DE day (or visa versa) then two upper back movments, one tricep movment and forearm and wrist work.

That makes sense. Thinking back I would actually bench press frequently in high school with high intensity and never had any problems. It is probably one of those things that only the more advanced lifters have to worry about and I was not thinking in terms of young athletes. I have actually never even heard of anyone under 18 tearing a pec unless they were doing something ridiculous like taking performance enhancing drugs.

Good point on the upper back work, I think that the upper back is one of the most neglected areas in a lot of people. Being strong in the gym is one thing, but being able to apply that strength on the field / court takes a balanced physique.

Travis Bell
08-19-2009, 02:32 PM
Good point on the upper back work, I think that the upper back is one of the most neglected areas in a lot of people. Being strong in the gym is one thing, but being able to apply that strength on the field / court takes a balanced physique.

Exactly! One of the biggest problems or challenges for the highschool athlete, or really any athlete for that matter is figuring out how to make their bodies more productive for one specific movement (or for some sports, several)

One of the down sides of bodybuilding being so popular is that most of the magazines cater to that kind of development, without teaching people discretion regarding application so most fall prey to bicep and six pack workouts

tabormcandrews
08-20-2009, 07:58 AM
i don't know too much about field throws and stuff but i am pretty sure that you can find some good workouts with kettle bells that will really help your strength

Travis Bell
08-20-2009, 08:42 AM
kettelbells wouldn't be a really productive choice for increasing strength for throwing

Tom Mutaffis
08-20-2009, 10:45 AM
I agree with Travis and consider kettlebells to be a conditioning tool rather than a strength building tool.

Unless they were to practice throwing the kettlebells... that may be good for overload training; like a 40 lbs kettlebell shot put. (kidding)

tabormcandrews
08-20-2009, 05:07 PM
conditioning sounds better